16 Sep 19
@philokalia saidLacking belief in the God figure that you just so happen to believe in, atheists find the ideology you propagate farfetched and morally incoherent. That's not the same as thinking your God figure is "cruel". Atheists don't believe anything "cruel" actually happens or that any "cruel" being is doing any "cruel" things. It's the non-credible "It is because it is"-fuelled fruits of your human imagination that are getting critiqued, not an actual supernatural being. Just to be clear.
This is the sort of salvo that you get from atheists pointing out that the Christian God is cruel, right.
16 Sep 19
@fmf saidThis is all correct!
Lacking belief in the God figure that you just so happen to believe in, atheists find the ideology you propagate farfetched and morally incoherent. That's not the same as thinking your God figure is "cruel". Atheists don't believe anything "cruel" actually happens or that any "cruel" being is doing any "cruel" things. It's the non-credible "It is because it is"-fuelled fruits of ...[text shortened]... ur human imagination that are getting critiqued, not an actual supernatural being. Just to be clear.
An atheist does not believe in hell, thus does not believe there is a God that is cruel doing these things.
However, the perceived cruelty of a religion becomes a point of criticism, because it becomes, as you say, morally incoherent.
However, this is all a matter of value judgments and our perceptions of what we believe is right and wrong. Let's remember that, in an atheist universe, there is no objective morality. There is only what is and what isn't. Or, to put it more succinctly, you can't derive an ought from an is.
16 Sep 19
@philokalia saidYour speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.
However, this is all a matter of value judgments and our perceptions of what we believe is right and wrong. Let's remember that, in an atheist universe, there is no objective morality.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116952
16 Sep 19
1 edit
@philokalia saidI’ve been posting about Hell and my view of it from a moral, scriptural, logical perspective for several years in thousands of posts over dozens and dozens of threads.
However, I have yet to see Dive in particular tell us how his view of hell not existing is Biblical.
Hell as a concept and as a place is completely metaphorical, as is eternal torture and pretty much everything in the Book of Revelation, which itself states that it is an account of John’s “visions”.
Philokalia, you should feel free to answer the challenge in the OP as soon as you find the courage and intellectual capacity to do so.
16 Sep 19
@fmf saidThere are elements that are entirely subjective, sure.
Your speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.
But it is possible for the argument to be entirely divorced from subjective experience and to rely solely on appeals to reason. But here we hit another quandary because reason itself is actually quite highly subjective. Even though it involves publicly verifiable lines of thought, it is very dependent upon each person's epistemology and value judgments.
What could be said about what I believe about hell that is "objective" ...?
Well, that's a bit of a spider web, isn't it?
What can be said about Christ that is objective... What can be said about the Saints that are objective... Let's say that we even recognize aspects of this as true, what does it really mean about hell?
But I think that reducing every single discussion about religion to you haven't proven the first premise -- the premise of God! would grow really stale. I think this is why some atheists use hell as a means of criticizing Christianity further or at least analyzing it.
@divegeester saidSo what!!!
I’ve been posting about Hell and my view of it from a moral, scriptural, logical perspective for several years in thousands of posts over dozens and dozens of threads.
Explain it again. Obviously philokalia is not satisfied with your biblical stance on a "no hell" situation.
Sheeesh, stop being so freakin arrogant dive. You obviously have nothing else better to do, as you're trolling around the forums.
Answer the question!!
16 Sep 19
@divegeester saidI am curious... What do you make of the Gospel of Matthew saying:
I’ve been posting about Hell and my view of it from a moral, scriptural, logical perspective for several years in thousands of posts over dozens and dozens of threads.
Hell as a concept and as a place is completely metaphorical, as is eternal torture and pretty much everything in the Book of Revelation, which itself states that it is an account of John’s “visions”.
...[text shortened]... o answer the challenge in the OP as soon as you find the courage and intellectual capacity to do so.
25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116952
16 Sep 19
@philokalia saidThe same as I make of every other parable, simile and story Jesus spoke about.
I am curious... What do you make of the Gospel of Matthew saying:
25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Would you like to take up the challenge in my OP?
16 Sep 19
@divegeester saidWhat challenge..?
The same as I make of every other parable, simile and story Jesus spoke about.
Would you like to take up the challenge in my OP?
So, you say, there is no hell, and there is no heaven?
Or, there is just no hell? What happens instead? Universal salvation or some such?
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116952
16 Sep 19
@philokalia saidRead the OP.
What challenge..?
It’s the first post at the top of page 1 of this thread.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116952
16 Sep 19
@philokalia saidFeel free to start a thread on “universal salvation”.
What happens instead? Universal salvation or some such?
This thread is about why certain Christians maintain and propitiate the belief of literal hell but are too cowardly to face the reality of what their beliefs mean.
16 Sep 19
@divegeester saidOh, OK. So you just think hell doesn't exist and are unwilling to discuss what the Bible is actually saying in this thread. This thread is about saying that people who believe in hell are not accepting the consequences or something?
Feel free to start a thread on “universal salvation”.
This thread is about why certain Christians maintain and propitiate the belief of literal hell but are too cowardly to face the reality of what their beliefs mean.
OK.
My beliefs on this are simple and based off of the teachings I have read...
- Hell is uncreated. It is a byproduct of the light of God which is as love to Christians and as a burning, rebuking fire to those who reject Christ.
- Our souls are necessarily eternal and not a thing which can be destroyed.
- Belief in Christ and repentnace is the road to being with God. I can guarantee that someone who follows the Christian path of prayer and metanoia (repentance) goes into the Kingdom of Heaven.
- I do not know who goes to hell, and what the "minimum threshold" for heaven is.
I think you can find that all of this is based off of a good interpretation of the Gospels and the Epistles, and the words of the church fathers.
Does this qualify as a "challenge accepted?"
Keep in mind, I will only make as many efforts and put in as much time to these posts as you do.