The god who burns people alive for eternity

@philokalia said
This is the sort of salvo that you get from atheists pointing out that the Christian God is cruel, right.

Lacking belief in the God figure that you just so happen to believe in, atheists find the ideology you propagate farfetched and morally incoherent. That's not the same as thinking your God figure is "cruel". Atheists don't believe anything "cruel" actually happens or that any "cruel" being is doing any "cruel" things. It's the non-credible "It is because it is"-fuelled fruits of your human imagination that are getting critiqued, not an actual supernatural being. Just to be clear.

@fmf said
Lacking belief in the God figure that you just so happen to believe in, atheists find the ideology you propagate farfetched and morally incoherent. That's not the same as thinking your God figure is "cruel". Atheists don't believe anything "cruel" actually happens or that any "cruel" being is doing any "cruel" things. It's the non-credible "It is because it is"-fuelled fruits of ...[text shortened]... ur human imagination that are getting critiqued, not an actual supernatural being. Just to be clear.

This is all correct!

An atheist does not believe in hell, thus does not believe there is a God that is cruel doing these things.

However, the perceived cruelty of a religion becomes a point of criticism, because it becomes, as you say, morally incoherent.

However, this is all a matter of value judgments and our perceptions of what we believe is right and wrong. Let's remember that, in an atheist universe, there is no objective morality. There is only what is and what isn't. Or, to put it more succinctly, you can't derive an ought from an is.

@philokalia said
However, this is all a matter of value judgments and our perceptions of what we believe is right and wrong. Let's remember that, in an atheist universe, there is no objective morality.

Your speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.

@fmf said
Your speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.

There are elements that are entirely subjective, sure.

But it is possible for the argument to be entirely divorced from subjective experience and to rely solely on appeals to reason. But here we hit another quandary because reason itself is actually quite highly subjective. Even though it involves publicly verifiable lines of thought, it is very dependent upon each person's epistemology and value judgments.

What could be said about what I believe about hell that is "objective" ...?

Well, that's a bit of a spider web, isn't it?

What can be said about Christ that is objective... What can be said about the Saints that are objective... Let's say that we even recognize aspects of this as true, what does it really mean about hell?

But I think that reducing every single discussion about religion to you haven't proven the first premise -- the premise of God! would grow really stale. I think this is why some atheists use hell as a means of criticizing Christianity further or at least analyzing it.

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So what!!!
Explain it again. Obviously philokalia is not satisfied with your biblical stance on a "no hell" situation.

Sheeesh, stop being so freakin arrogant dive. You obviously have nothing else better to do, as you're trolling around the forums.

Answer the question!!

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I am curious... What do you make of the Gospel of Matthew saying:

25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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What challenge..?

So, you say, there is no hell, and there is no heaven?

Or, there is just no hell? What happens instead? Universal salvation or some such?

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Oh, OK. So you just think hell doesn't exist and are unwilling to discuss what the Bible is actually saying in this thread. This thread is about saying that people who believe in hell are not accepting the consequences or something?

OK.

My beliefs on this are simple and based off of the teachings I have read...

- Hell is uncreated. It is a byproduct of the light of God which is as love to Christians and as a burning, rebuking fire to those who reject Christ.
- Our souls are necessarily eternal and not a thing which can be destroyed.
- Belief in Christ and repentnace is the road to being with God. I can guarantee that someone who follows the Christian path of prayer and metanoia (repentance) goes into the Kingdom of Heaven.
- I do not know who goes to hell, and what the "minimum threshold" for heaven is.

I think you can find that all of this is based off of a good interpretation of the Gospels and the Epistles, and the words of the church fathers.

Does this qualify as a "challenge accepted?"

Keep in mind, I will only make as many efforts and put in as much time to these posts as you do.