@philokalia said
Does this qualify as a "challenge accepted?"

No it doesn’t, it’s more of your unscriptural pseudo philosophical film flam.

If you want to talk with me in this thread then go and read the OP properly and answer the straightforward question contained within it about people being burnt alive.

It’s quite simple.

@philokalia said
There are elements that are entirely subjective, sure.

But it is possible for the argument to be entirely divorced from subjective experience and to rely solely on appeals to reason. But here we hit another quandary because reason itself is actually quite highly subjective. Even though it involves publicly verifiable lines of thought, it is very dependent upon each per ...[text shortened]... why some atheists use hell as a means of criticizing Christianity further or at least analyzing it.

I am not sure why you typed all this. Was it for me?

The post you were responding to was:

Your speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.

@divegeester said
Ok this thread is specifically calling SecondSon and Sonship to the platform to discuss precisely what it is we all need to know about Jesus and his alleged oversight of the burning of people in Hell for eternity. I’d include JellyKay but he’s got me on ignore as usual.

Why am I starting this thread? Both of the protagonists mentioned are keen to highlight the l ...[text shortened]... what you believe about it, please feel free to step in and correct my understanding.

Thank you.

I do not see a question. But I presume the question is:

Are people burnt alive for eternity?

The answer would be yes, that is how it is described. It is described as an eternal punishment and it is likened to a lake of fire in revelations and it is said to be the fire that can never be quenched in Mark 9.

As to how literal the fire is, I do not know.

@fmf said
I am not sure why you typed all this. Was it for me?

The post you were responding to was:

Your speculation about supernatural things is firmly in realm of subjectivity, as are your judgments and perceptions. There's nothing "objective" about your beliefs regarding the desires and actions you attribute to some magical being or other.

Do you think that appeals to reason are subjective?

@philokalia said
Do you think that appeals to reason are subjective?

If your "appeals" are rooted in speculation about magical things, and your moral assertions are based on "It is because it is"-type "truths" and notions attributed to supernatural beings, then whatever stuff you come up with is entirely subjective. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

@philokalia said
I do not see a question. But I presume the question is:

Are people burnt alive for eternity?

The answer would be yes, that is how it is described. It is described as an eternal punishment and it is likened to a lake of fire in revelations and it is said to be the fire that can never be quenched in Mark 9.

As to how literal the fire is, I do not know.

So like the others your answer is yes and no?

@divegeester said
So like the others your answer is yes and no?

Give me an exact question and I can give you an exact answer.

If the question is, though, do people burn in hell for all of eternity, then the answer would be yes as I understand it.

@fmf said
If your "appeals" are rooted in speculation about magical things, and your moral assertions are based on "It is because it is"-type "truths" and notions attributed to supernatural beings, then whatever stuff you come up with is entirely subjective. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

If your "appeals" are rooted in speculation about magical things, and your moral assertions are based on "It is because it is"-type "truths" and notions attributed to supernatural beings, then whatever stuff you come up with is entirely subjective.

Oh, OK. I think a lot of apologetics employs rationale appeals to the existence of God, and then theology moves into the realm of philosophizing within the context of what is believed to be God's revealed truth.

So there's a domain where pure philosophy and pure reason occurs, then there is the domain of theology.

The two must be separated for a reasonable conversation to take place.

Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

So far, I've only just made some statements that are within the context of Christian theology to another self-identified Christian about the concept of hell.

No big reasoning was necessary, and all reasoning that is going to occur is in the context of theology, which operates off of given premises that are common between Christians.

If you were to join, though, you could say "given X, Y, and Z, here is my thought, and how it is relevant to Christianity," and then we'd interact with it.

But if your only plan is to say "God doesn't exist, this is unproven," then that is just an entirely different dsicussion, right. We go back to Square One and we have no business discussing things on Square 85.

@philokalia said
Give me an exact question and I can give you an exact answer.

If the question is, though, do people burn in hell for all of eternity, then the answer would be yes as I understand it.

Of course that is the question, it’s blatantly bleedin’ obvious.

Ok, so you are the first Christian to come out and expressly state that people will be burned alive for eternity. Well done, I suppose.

It will of course be billions of people and they will need to be deliberately kept alive by Jesus, who is said in Revelation to be in the presence of all this carnage presumably overseeing it,

It’s a wonderful thought.

@philokalia said
So far, I've only just made some statements that are within the context of Christian theology to another self-identified Christian about the concept of hell.

No big reasoning was necessary, and all reasoning that is going to occur is in the context of theology, which operates off of given premises that are common between Christians.

If you were to join, though, you c ...[text shortened]... dsicussion, right. We go back to Square One and we have no business discussing things on Square 85.

So, I'll try again. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

@philokalia said
But if your only plan is to say "God doesn't exist, this is unproven," then that is just an entirely different dsicussion, right.

I have never once said on this forum, in 12 or more years, "God doesn't exist", as I have said to you before maybe half a dozen times. It's odd that you would characterize that as my "only plan" in the circumstances.

@divegeester said
Of course that is the question, it’s blatantly bleedin’ obvious.

Ok, so you are the first Christian to come out and expressly state that people will be burned alive for eternity. Well done, I suppose.

It will of course be billions of people and they will need to be deliberately kept alive by Jesus, who is said in Revelation to be in the presence of all this carnage presumably overseeing it,

It’s a wonderful thought.

I have stated before that I do not know what the criteria is for going to hell, so I am not sure about the numbers with that at all. I cannot judge. Only God can.

So, is that it?

Is my challenge complete?

@philokalia said
So far, I've only just made some statements that are within the context of Christian theology to another self-identified Christian about the concept of hell.

The degree of traction that "It is because it is"-type moral 'arguments' have when people assert them to other people who already agree with them ~ within whatever communal feedback loop their religious beliefs trap them in ~ is neither here nor there when you are talking to people outside your religion.

@fmf said
So, I'll try again. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

I see my contributions to this discussion on hell is one that involves Christian theology, and that within Christian theology, there is reason.

@fmf said
I have never once said on this forum, in 12 or more years, "God doesn't exist", as I have said to you before maybe half a dozen times. It's odd that you would characterize that as my "only plan" in the circumstances.

OK, I'll definitely let you define your beliefs however you want them to. ^^

But is it true that you deny the existence of our Christian God, and you do not support the claims of the existence of any other God?

Shorthand for that is usually just saying "God doesn't exist," but let me know what shorthand you would prefer and I'll try to remember it.