The god who burns people alive for eternity

@fmf said
The stuff on that thread. You were a contributor. Don't worry about it.

OK, cool.

@fmf said
This contortion comes across like self-parody. Sounds like you want to strut the hardnose torturer god ideology on one hand, but, on the other, you also want to hedge and be wishy-washy about it.

Do you have control over your own actions?

@philokalia said
What's the right interpretation, then.

I don’t know, but my not knowing doesn’t mean I cannot see conjecture from you. And what you posted was conjecture.

In fact much of your concept of Christianity is conjecture and pseudo-religious platitudes from various St Nobodies from Nowhere.

@divegeester said
What a load of made up nonsense. Why can’t the so called Christians in this forum be honest!

Rev 14:10-11
“If anyone uworships the beast and its image and receives va mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink wthe wine of God’s wrath, xpoured full strength into the cup of his anger, and yhe will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of th ...[text shortened]... Lamb.[/b]”

What is it about the phrase “in the presence of the Lamb” that you feel unsure about?

It sounds like there is a special punishment for those who worship Antichrist, and that this involves fury from God that is delivered with a personal touch with His Angels.

That is what I get out of the passage but I am not a theologian so I can only say that that is what I get from it, and nothing more.

@philokalia said
Do you have control over your own actions?

Yeah, pretty much. And I am not going to send myself to a "Hell" place I have no reason to think exists. If believing that people - and not your God figure - arrange for themselves to be tortured for eternity because they "choose" to - if believing that gives you a sense of meaning in your life and is part of your belief that you will enjoy everlasting life, good for you. Do you actually believe that this stuff about 'people sending themselves to hell' is an 'appeal to reason'?

@philokalia said
It sounds like there is a special punishment for those who worship Antichrist, and that this involves fury from God that is delivered with a personal touch with His Angels.

That is what I get out of the passage but I am not a theologian so I can only say that that is what I get from it, and nothing more.

I’m not asking you to explain it, I’m asking you to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is stated in the bible as being in Hell overseeing the eternal torture of people who are being burned alive.

Do you acknowledge this, yes or no?

Is it literal yes or no?

Simple stuff philokalia, straightforward questions with no tricks. I just require your honesty.

@kellyjay said
You have not addressed my point about over looking a crime yet. You already knew I believed in an eternal hell so nothing new there. You think love means crimes can be ignored?

Even in this earthly realm, I am against capital punishment. But the idea that God would punish the 'crime' of disbelief with eternal suffering is horrific.

@kellyjay said
Right now, you are the one making truth claim based upon just your feelings. I asked you a question so we could reason this out. If you want to lower this to name-calling too, I guess we can stop. If however you think that what you said is absolutely true why avoid answering what I’m asking? Can someone who loves another over look a crime if that person is just and good, even a human we don’t have to take this to godhood?

Name-calling? Read again what I wrote and identify any name-calling:

'What if 'scriptural truths' are merely the 'feelings' of men, written down a long time ago in a book?'

@fmf said
Yeah, pretty much. And I am not going to send myself to a "Hell" place I have no reason to think exists. If believing that people - and not your God figure - arrange for themselves to be tortured for eternity because they "choose" to - if believing that gives you a sense of meaning in your life and is part of your belief that you will enjoy everlasting life, good for you. Do you actually believe that this stuff about 'people sending themselves to hell' is an 'appeal to reason'?

(1) If you have control over your own actions, it makes sense to say that you are responsible for your own actions, though there are some other factors involved. For instance, if someone were to put me at the helm of a Boeing 747 right now with 200 passengers, and there is no way to put on autopilot and I have to learn how to land in the next 15 minutes before gas goes out... It can be argued that I am not responsible in a meaningful way if I mess this thing up.

So, a person with diminished mental capacity, or a person that has been born into a very different set of circumstances far from God, or who has suffered abuse, presumably also has ameliorating circumstances that make their life different and give them varying degrees of responsibility. The parable of the servants and the stripes they are given seems to indicate that.

I think this is reasonable.

(2) Does reason exist?

Is it possible to be reasonable?

Is it possible to appeal to reason in such a way that it is persuasive to others?

@divegeester said
I’m not asking you to explain it, I’m asking you to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is stated in the bible as being in Hell overseeing the eternal torture of people who are being burned alive.

Do you acknowledge this, yes or no?

Is it literal yes or no?

Simple stuff philokalia, straightforward questions with no tricks. I just require your honesty.

I do not think that that post means that he presides over the totality of hell and is present throughout it. So, I do not think the verse actually corresponds precisely to your statement.

One more question for you...

Is it possible for someone to say "I don't know" and to be treated with respect? Is that an option to respectfully plead ignorance? Keep in mind, the measure that you set for others is the measure that will be applied to you.

@philokalia said
I do not think that that post means that he presides over the totality of hell and is present throughout it. So, I do not think the verse actually corresponds precisely to your statement.

You are dodging again.

Will you acknowledge that the bible states that Jesus is in Hell overseeing the eternal burning — yes or no?

Simple question.

@philokalia said
(1) If you have control over your own actions, it makes sense to say that you are responsible for your own actions, though there are some other factors involved. For instance, if someone were to put me at the helm of a Boeing 747 right now with 200 passengers, and there is no way to put on autopilot and I have to learn how to land in the next 15 minutes before gas g ...[text shortened]... be reasonable?

Is it possible to appeal to reason in such a way that it is persuasive to others?

We can both agree that Boeing 747s with 200 passengers in them exist. But the rest of what you have typed seems like waffle. We are not in a Boeing 747s with 200 passengers in it, and the analogy is a dud. Does it work on your fellow Christians? Do you think that your assertion that by lacking belief in your God figure I am choosing to torture myself in burning flames for eternity is an "appeal to reason"?

@philokalia said
One more question for you...
Is it possible for someone to say "I don't know" and to be treated with respect? Is that an option to respectfully plead ignorance? Keep in mind, the measure that you set for others is the measure that will be applied to you.

Yes of course it is ok to say I don’t know.

But the Christians here aren’t saying they don’t know, they are adamant that they DO know that hell is literal etc. But when confronted with the reality of that belief, the actuality of billions of people being kept alive and eternally burned, they back away.

As they all have in this thread.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Even in this earthly realm, I am against capital punishment. But the idea that God would punish the 'crime' of disbelief with eternal suffering is horrific.

One step at a time, your claim was that love would not mean eternal punishment. My question to you is since you connected the two, can love over look at crime. Don't jump to punishment, if love can ignore wrongs done why bother with the idea of punishment?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Name-calling? Read again what I wrote and identify any name-calling:

'What if 'scriptural truths' are merely the 'feelings' of men, written down a long time ago in a book?'

Feelings of men who ended up getting cut in half, crucified upside down, beheaded, and so on? How about we stick to the question at hand, you made a statement, I asked a question. You linked love with eternal punishment; my question is can love overlook crime and act like it didn't happen? I gave the business man's son, who was embezzling as an example. If someone loves you, does that mean you are free to do whatever you want, no matter how horrific without fear of punishment?

The question of eternal punishment is separate, but the connection to love has to be addressed first since you applied that as what makes the sentence impossible.