@rajk999 saidYou reject the New Covenant and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I neither said nor did I imply any such thing.
Your doctrine is a failure and it is contrary to Christ.
You reject the deity of Jesus Christ.
You’re still living in the Old Testament where the focus is on yourself and trying to earn your salvation, when your focus should be on Jesus Christ and the price He paid to give you the gift of salvation.
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
(Galatians 2:21)
@rajk999 saidYou repeat a main point of dogma for the JWs, that's what they have to do with it.
Answer the question.
What evidence do you have that Jesus always existed with God
The bible says that Jesus was the firstborn of the creation.
Therefore Jesus was created.
Stick to the topic. What do the JWs have to do with this.
Ever hear of John 1:1? It denies your JW babblings. The JWs fix this by changing the words of John 1:1.
Here, again, is John 1:1-5:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
Like the JWs, you "comprehended it not."
1. "The same was in the beginning with God." -- John 1:2, KJV
"The same" is "the Word". The Word was in the beginning with God. Is this phrase, "in the beginning", familiar to you at all? It's the same "in the beginning" as in John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1. You must have ironically missed this in your headlong rush to criticize Christians.
2. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."-- John 1:3, KJV
Getting the picture yet?
And no, genius: Colossians 1:15-18, KJV, is thus: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
1. Firstborn, not "first born".
2. Every creature, not "the creation".
3. "By him were all things created." This says he had a hand in creation.
4. Again, "all things were created by him". How can the point be more clear?
5. "Firstborn from the dead." If "firstborn of every creature" means he was created, does "firstborn from the dead" mean he is dead? No, Jesus is alive; a basic Christian belief.
6. "And he is before all things." And "in all things he might have the preeminence." This is what this usage of firstborn in Colossians means. He is preeminent. This means "surpassing all others". It says this in black and white. This also means that "firstborn of every creature" means surpassing every creature; he was not created, he is, was, and always has been. "In the beginning was the Word" is how John 1:1 puts it. It also shows that "firstborn from the dead" means that he has dominion over the dead, he is NOT one of them.
6. Similarly, "whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers", he has dominion over all these things.
7. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." This is the beauty of these verses. The writer has used both meanings of the word "firstborn", and combines them in this one sentence, in order to make his meaning crystal clear. I guess that means you are without ears, for you will not hear.
Firstborn is used two ways in the New Testament. Literally, to mean first offspring, of man or beast. And figuratively, meaning preeminent, surpassing all things.
Perhaps if you were familiar with more of the New Testament, you'd know this.
Apparently you never read my other post about this precise topic, above in this very thread, so I thought I'd give you a recap.
@suzianne saidBaloney ... who asked you all that ? What is 'The Beginning'? Of course, Jesus was there at the beginning of the world and the creation. Jesus was there a million years ago maybe and Jesus was probably there a billion years ago, I dont know ... but there was a point in time when God created Jesus, could have been a zillion years ago. Nobody knows when. Angels are created beings and so is the Son of God.
You repeat a main point of dogma for the JWs, that's what they have to do with it.
Ever hear of John 1:1? It denies your JW babblings. The JWs fix this by changing the words of John 1:1.
Here, again, is John 1:1-5:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; a ...[text shortened]... y other post about this precise topic, above in this very thread, so I thought I'd give you a recap.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.(Hebrews 1:4 KJV)
The Son of God was MADE better than the angels
Part of the problem is that most of the Christians around here are YECs, who believe that the universe is 6,000 yrs old.
@rajk999 said<<Angels are created beings and so is the Son of God.>>
Baloney ... who asked you all that ? What is 'The Beginning'? Of course, Jesus was there at the beginning of the world and the creation. Jesus was there a million years ago maybe and Jesus was probably there a billion years ago, I dont know ... but there was a point in time when God created Jesus, could have been a zillion years ago. Nobody knows when. Angels are c ...[text shortened]... is that most of the Christians around here are YECs, who believe that the universe is 6,000 yrs old.
Nope.
<<Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.(Hebrews 1:4 KJV)
The Son of God was MADE better than the angels >>
You’re reading that verse in isolation and ignoring the verse that immediately precedes it. Here are the two verses together:
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”
(Hebrews 1:3-4)
Verse 4 refers to the Resurrected Jesus Christ. Verse 4 is speaking of Jesus after “he had by himself purged our sins” and “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” That was obviously after His Resurrection and ascension into Heaven.
Jesus Christ was not the same during His earthly ministry and after His Resurrection because the next chapter in Hebrews says Jesus during His earthly ministry had been “made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death” to “taste death for every man.”
After His Resurrection, Jesus was “made so much better than the angels” because He was no longer in human flesh and no longer subject to death.
His Resurrected body was not the same as His “human” body.
As the Apostle Paul says:
“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
(1 Corinthians 15:53-54)
And if you read just a little further in Hebrews 1, you’ll see God the Father calling Jesus Christ “God.”
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
(Hebrews 1:8)
@rajk999 saidGod didn't create Jesus; Jesus isn't a created being. Jesus is begotten, He became a man, but before that, there was never a time He wasn't.
Baloney ... who asked you all that ? What is 'The Beginning'? Of course, Jesus was there at the beginning of the world and the creation. Jesus was there a million years ago maybe and Jesus was probably there a billion years ago, I dont know ... but there was a point in time when God created Jesus, could have been a zillion years ago. Nobody knows when. Angels are c ...[text shortened]... is that most of the Christians around here are YECs, who believe that the universe is 6,000 yrs old.
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@kellyjay saidGive me supporting bible references for
God didn't create Jesus; Jesus isn't a created being. Jesus is begotten, He became a man, but before that, there was never a time He wasn't.
1. God didn't create Jesus;
2. Jesus isn't a created being.
3. Jesus is begotten [... from where / who ]
4. there was never a time He wasn't.
Note that the word 'begotten' means 'born of' or fathered.
@pb1022 saidCheck this out when you get a chance....
Why don’t you read John 1:1?
"That question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”—The Holy Bible—New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible.
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an&rdquo😉 leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting.
The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”
The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”
Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God."
@rajk999 saidGive you supporting Bible references; really, you are asking for references who refuses to give supporting references for your version of Jesus' gospel.
Give me supporting bible references for
1. God didn't create Jesus;
2. Jesus isn't a created being.
3. Jesus is begotten [... from where / who ]
4. there was never a time He wasn't.
Note that the word 'begotten' means 'born of' or fathered.
Why don't you produce your references for the things you claim.
@galveston75 saidHow many different versions are there that simply have and the Word was God?
Check this out when you get a chance....
"That question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thou ...[text shortened]... did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God."
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Study Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.
Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Literal Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
New Heart English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Geneva Bible of 1587
In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
Bishops' Bible of 1568
In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde.
Tyndale Bible of 1526
In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.
Lamsa Bible
THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.
Literal Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Smith's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
Literal Emphasis Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
There are a lot more, but I'm concern I may duplicate some, if I have not already.
@kellyjay saidBut they are not following the oldest writings. They are copies of other bibles and were influenced by beliefs that had the influence of the trinity.
How many different versions are there that simply have and the Word was God?
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word wa ...[text shortened]... was the Word.
There are a lot more, but I'm concern I may duplicate some, if I have not already.
Jesus warned this would happen and what better way to make the needed little change to make the trinity a believable thing. That is the problem.........
So did you really read my post or just doing the usual reaction? After you do, show me proof that the"A" is not found in something older then what is in my post??????????
I think there might be connections to be made between the Hindu "Nada Brahma (the world is sound)," the Judeo-Christian God speaking the world into being, the Hassidic view that the Cosmos is made of the letters of the Torah, Pat Conroy saying "Story is sacred," and recent observations that at the molecular level, everything is made up of vibrating shapes (of course if we were to tune up or down the dial . . . ).
As for the Trinity: many use water as a metaphor for Spirit, but I don't think it's quite right to use the three known phases of water to explain the concept of the Trinity.
However, maybe instead of considering the constitution of the unknowable God, we could turn this around and consider it from a different perspective: i.e., different views that humans might have about God, different ways of apprehending the Ultimate from which and in which all and we occur.