@kellyjay saidPresumably, you mean "equivalent" in your view. I don't see why there is any onus on moonbus to offer you something that you find "equivalent" to whatever religious views you happen to have.
You can suggest some body reached enlightenment to do things, that in no way is equivalent to God becoming a man to take on our guilt for our salvation, then rising from the dead. That was done for us in spite of guilt and inability to overcome our plight.
@kellyjay saidPlease KJ, I don't want to argue that here. Sonship called upon me to prove that I have anything serious to say of a spiritual nature. I think I have sufficiently demonstrated that. As you yourself could testify, we have had serious discussions about literalist interpretations of Genesis, the origin of life and the universe, evolution, and moral issues (such as human sexuality). That puts paid to sonship's contention that I'm just a wisecracker.
You can suggest some body reached enlightenment to do things, that in no way is equivalent to God becoming a man to take on our guilt for our salvation, then rising from the dead. That was done for us in spite of guilt and inability to overcome our plight.
Sure, I interject some light-hearted banter sometimes, too. Sometimes this forum gets really bogged down in grim recriminations about an eternal-torture God and lakes of fire, ... really depressing stuff, the stuff of children's nightmares. This forum could use a little tickle between the ribs sometimes, don't you think?
1 edit
@moonbus saidNo worries!
Please KJ, I don't want to argue that here. Sonship called upon me to prove that I have anything serious to say of a spiritual nature. I think I have sufficiently demonstrated that. As you yourself could testify, we have had serious discussions about literalist interpretations of Genesis, the origin of life and the universe, evolution, and moral issues (such as human s ...[text shortened]... dren's nightmares. This forum could use a little tickle between the ribs sometimes, don't you think?
Yes on the tickles!
@moonbus saidAnd one of these was me. I appreciated the even-handedness of your response. I rarely get that here from the "they-know-who-they-are" regulars.
Thanks for that, FMF and Ghost.
Now, to quote a recent example:
@suzianne said
My point in saying that the ministry of Jesus changed everything, is that it made a previously inaccessible God (except through the high priests) accessible to everyone. This made Christianity the first 'personal' religion. Or, as you say, a "consciousness of [personal] responsibility".
...[text shortened]... that, sonship? Spiritual enough for you? Or do you require a more in-your-face style?
@fmf saidYou are like a broken record, spouting off the same ole song and dance over and over. "You mean this in your thinking?", "What do you think of his opinions?", repeatedly, ad nauseum. You of the opinion there is no truth, only people's opinions, no absolutes, only individual world views?
Presumably, you mean "equivalent" in your view. I don't see why there is any onus on moonbus to offer you something that you find "equivalent" to whatever religious views you happen to have.
@kellyjay saidAll you are sharing here are your perspectives based on your conjecture, or on your analysis, or on reiterating doctrines you have memorized, as is everyone here. moonbus does not have to conjure up an "equivalent" to your religious beliefs, and so persuade you, in order to discuss yours and his perspectives.
You are like a broken record, spouting off the same ole song and dance over and over. "You mean this in your thinking?", "What do you think of his opinions?", repeatedly, ad nauseum. You of the opinion there is no truth, only people's opinions, no absolutes, only individual world views?
@fmf saidWhat you just said is only true if what you think is all there is to truth. If there are absolutes outside of your brain, you have put up blinders so that you couldn't see them even if you wanted too.
With regard to the supernatural realm, all you have is your speculation and nothing more.
@kellyjay saidWith regard to the supernatural realm, all you have - KellyJay - is your speculation about "absolutes outside of your brain" and "blinders", and nothing more.
What you just said is only true if what you think is all there is to truth. If there are absolutes outside of your brain, you have put up blinders so that you couldn't see them even if you wanted too.
@kellyjay saidEither the questions for clarification and endless multiple microposts will go back to nothing or to....
You are like a broken record, spouting off the same ole song and dance over and over. "You mean this in your thinking?", "What do you think of his opinions?", repeatedly, ad nauseum. You of the opinion there is no truth, only people's opinions, no absolutes, only individual world views?
"How does this fit in with your torturer God ideology?!"
@philokalia said'You will be tortured' is the only message KellyJay has for atheists like me. That's fine, it means nothing on its own. What makes it interesting is that 'You will be tortured' is framed as "perfect justice" and "ultimate morality". Maybe the proponents of torturer god ideology will come to their moral senses one day and drop the doctrine. Or maybe I will one day be somehow coerced into believing the threat and become a believer. We shall see.
Either the questions for clarification and endless multiple microposts will go back to nothing or to....
"How does this fit in with your torturer God ideology?!"
@fmf saidAlright, maybe this isn't the most useful concept to be fixed on.
'You will be tortured' is the only message KellyJay has for atheists like me. That's fine, it means nothing on its own. What makes it interesting is that 'You will be tortured' is framed as "perfect justice" and "ultimate morality". Maybe the proponents of torturer god ideology will come to their moral senses one day and drop the doctrine. Or maybe I will one day be somehow coerced into believing the threat and become a believer. We shall see.
It is based on the idea that hell is real, and the price for failing to love God is a barrier between you and him, and ignoring God in your life will be a sign of being ungrateful and destructive to the community around you, right.
If you absolutely cannot believe because you've been touched by some events or some profound and obsessive ignorance, there can still be cases of mercy as is implied by the doctrines that exist.
What more about this do you want to know or do you think is so off..?