Originally posted by FMFHebrews 13:17
Jesus' "direction" and "teaching" is in the New Testament. If you need a teacher then get one. If you need a fellow Christian to be your leader, then seek one out. Neither of these - the teacher or leader - is Jesus. Their teaching and leadership is them, it is theirs, and it is yours... if you want it. But it cannot be equated with Jesus Himself. Jesus' teachin ...[text shortened]... ke Jesus' place unless you personally want them to. Which is your prerogative, I suppose.
New Living Translation (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.
Does your Bible not have this scripture in it?
Does the Bible show that true Christians would be an organized people?
Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.” (How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.” (But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?)
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.” (The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.)
1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.” (An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)
Are those who are faithful servants of God simply individuals who are scattered in the various churches of Christendom?
2 Cor. 6:15-18: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’ ‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.” (Is a person really a faithful servant of God if he continues to share in worship with those who show by their way of life that they really are unbelievers? See the main heading “Babylon the Great.&rdquo😉
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)
John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?)
There is clear direction here. A Christain would not only have to be a part of this in mind and heart, but would have to be a part of it body. A Christian can not be just an arm chair member.
Originally posted by galveston75It isn't referring to a specific "religious organisation". You want to submit to someone claiming to "be [teaching] directly from Jesus", as you put it, then do so. It's your prerogative. No Christian or Christians on Earth right now have been singled out for designation or endorsement by Jesus. The quote you offer doesn't do this. Obey those you deem to be your "spiritual leaders" by all means, but walk away from them if they fall short in terms of their teaching or leadership. They are in no way 'anointed' by Jesus and nor is any "religious organisation".
Hebrews 13:17
New Living Translation (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.
Does your Bible not have this scripture in it?
Originally posted by galveston75There is a commonality in belief and worship, a unity even, but nothing about having to be "a member of a religious organisation", something you have already conceded on the previous page of this thread.
There is clear direction here. A Christain would not only have to be a part of this in mind and heart, but would have to be a part of it body. A Christian can not be just an arm chair member.
Originally posted by FMFThere is? Maybe you could explain that.
There is a commonality in belief and worship, a unity even, but nothing about having to be "a member of a religious organisation", something you have already conceded on the previous page of this thread.
But all so called Christian religions or individuals that do not belong to any church or even ones who have left those organized churches for their new local non denonminational churches all believe the same? They all have their own little twist on the Bible and don't really follow anything but what their preachers own opinion tells them.
For instance our dear friend RJH as an example would kill another Christian in another country if his government told him to and most other so called Christian religions would back that up as history shows.
So why is that? Is that being a true Christian? What is their churches teaching them or for ones who don't really go to church, they would no doubt do the same if told to do so by their government.
But your statement that all believe the same is partially true in the sense that all don't do much in the things Jesus said to do. Not many take seriously the command to preach and teach by following they way Jesus and his followers did. In order to do this, it would have to be organized and the churches as a whole do not do that on any level much less by individuals out on their own who proclaim to be Christian.
Originally posted by FMFI conceded nothing and you know it. Don't twist the meaning of what you know I explained unless you are unable to understand the explination.
There is a commonality in belief and worship, a unity even, but nothing about having to be "a member of a religious organisation", something you have already conceded on the previous page of this thread.
Originally posted by galveston75Well you have already stated that one does not have to be a part of an organization or even a church to be a Christian. The degree to which the "commonality" of the "flock" [which you mentioned, i.e. Christianity, in its entirety and all its diversity] varies is just a natural upshot of the fact that there simply is no central organisation. But there is the New Testament. And there are people like you who need to submit to people who decide to be leaders. And there are leaders who decide to lead people like you. As you point out, though, a Christian does not have to be a part of an organization in order to be a Christian. I agree with you. It will be interesting to see what robbie makes of this assertion of yours.
Not many take seriously the command to preach and teach by following they way Jesus and his followers did. In order to do this, it would have to be organized and the churches as a whole do not do that on any level much less by individuals out on their own who proclaim to be Christian.
Originally posted by galveston75You conceded that one does not have to be a part of an organization or even a church to be a Christian. On page 4. Verbatim, not "twisted" at all. robbie takes the opposite view: "[some] have erroneously assumed, primarily because of a lack of scriptural knowledge, that one does not need to be part of an organisation for worship". You are on either side of this question. divegeester and I agree with you, and disagree with robbie.
I conceded nothing and you know it. Don't twist the meaning of what you know I explained unless you are unable to understand the explination.
Originally posted by FMFUnder what conditions did I say that? Read what is said, reason on it and get the point, not what you want it to be. As usual you attache your sight on one statement and can't see past that to the meaning of that statement. You seem to be fairly intellegent but when you can't see what is being explained I wonder why?
Well you have already stated that one does not have to be a part of an organization or even a church to be a Christian. The degree to which the "commonality" of the "flock" [which you mentioned, i.e. Christianity, in its entirety and all its diversity] varies is just a natural upshot of the fact that there simply is no central organisation. But there is the New ...[text shortened]... agree with you. It will be interesting to see what robbie makes of this assertion of yours.
I question that as to your motives. I think it's because you are avoiding the subject at hand and refusing to acknowledge the truth and sense it makes. This way you can continue on with your opinion of what you think a Christain is. Maybe a watered down version that feels they don't have to work at it? Just sit back and "have your ears tickled'?
Originally posted by galveston75more water with your Christian sir, no thanks, I am a liberal, I prefer them lukewarm!
Under what conditions did I say that? Read what is said, reason on it and get the point, not what you want it to be. As usual you attache your sight on one statement and can't see past that to the meaning of that statement. You seem to be fairly intellegent but when you can't see what is being explained I wonder why?
I question that as to your motives. sion that feels they don't have to work at it? Just sit back and "have your ears tickled'?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat is a correct statement my Brother. It's easy to tread water and go with the flow then actually working and go against the tide and actually working as Jesus said it would be. It is a hard road to do as he did and can even mean our deaths if we follow Jesus. We are to pick up our own torture stakes and most will not do that as he himself said most will not do. He told them to get away from him....
more water with your Christian sir, no thanks, I am a liberal, I prefer them lukewarm!
Originally posted by galveston75Yes, I understand that you are committed to the particular path you have chosen, and the organisation and leaders you have chosen to submit yourself to by way of your membership. But, as you clearly said on the previous page, one does not have to be a part of an organization or even a church to be a Christian, which is the issue I have been discussing with you, and it is a matter on which we happen to agree.
It's easy to tread water and go with the flow then actually working and go against the tide and actually working as Jesus said it would be. It is a hard road to do as he did and can even mean our deaths if we follow Jesus. We are to pick up our own torture stakes and most will not do that as he himself said most will not do. He told them to get away from him....
Originally posted by divegeesterI've been down this path before and have answered you as clear as possible. Go back and find that answer as I'm not doing this again............................
Jehovah's Witnesses, as you seem to know all about this issues and are certain of your postion I have a question for you to which I would like a 'yes' or 'no' answer please:
[b]Do I have ot be a member of the JW organisation in order to actually be a Christian?[/b]
Originally posted by FMFFirst there are no memberships with the JW's. This is not a country club.
Yes, I understand that you are committed to the particular path you have chosen, and the organisation and leaders you have chosen to submit yourself to by way of your membership. But, as you clearly said on the previous page, one does not have to be a part of an organization or even a church to be a Christian, which is the issue I have been discussing with you, and it is a matter on which we happen to agree.
Ok lets try this again. If a person lives on Mars and cannot come to our meetings, get our liturature, get baptized at one of our assemblies and knows absolutley nothing about the JW's but has heard of Jesus and they want to be a Christian and "follow all the commands" of Jesus, he would no doubt be in god's favor and be accepted as a Christian. God judges who he accepts if that person cannot do what the rest of us on earth do with participating in our organization and proclaiming we are part of it..
Now does that make it easier to understand?