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Originally posted by magmacollinsI don't believe anyone is there yet.
I thought a question of this type would end up in the spirituality corner but its like we choose where we want to post it. So what do you think and/or know about Hell - fire - Hades - the bible - koran, etc.
Lets know.
Thanks.
I believe it was made for the Devil and his angels.
I believe after the fall of man we placed ourselves in a place where we
too could end up there.
I believe no one is there and none will be until the day of judgment
comes when all the things done by all will be laid bare for all to see,
and only those who sinned against God will be cast into hell.
I believe God takes what is done to each of His as if it was done to
Him so even treating another the least of God's people is just like
doing something to God, good or bad.
I believe once in Hell that is it, like Heaven your there forever and
like Heaven the joy there, Hell the suffering there will be without
let up.
I believe in Hell there will be the absence of all mercy, all grace, all
pity, and as such it is a place to be avoided, since punishment is all
that any will find there.
Kelly
Originally posted by jaywillYoure a false teacher.
[b]=================================
Christ never said that we should go about " ...compeling people to believe the Gospel message. "
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Right here:
The teaching concerning the acceptance of God's invitation LUKE 14:15-24
Paticularly this part of His parabolic teaching - "And the maste ...[text shortened]... erful Jesus Christ.
I shake off the dust. I go on to someone else who may listen.
Please move on. Thanks.
Originally posted by Rajk999Confusion about "The Rich Man & Lazarus." Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real event or something else? Did Jesus not use parables many times in his teachings? The Jerusalem Bible acknowledges that "this is a parable without any referance to any historical event."
Do you see a contradiction between what you said here :
"...All the Bible says is that your dead and awaitng a resurrection either to heaven or back on the earth where we were created to be in the first place. In fact the faithful men of old such as Noah, Moses and Abraham never mentioned anything to any of the bad ones that they encountered that they wer ...[text shortened]... ection back on this earth. .."
and Christ's story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 ?
If this were a true event, reason on this for a minute... This would mean that all those enjoying divine favor would all fit into one mans bosom, Abraham's. And that (1) drop of water would bring relief to all those suffering in the fire of Hades.
Could this be a contradiction? The Bible never contradicts itself..ever.
What does this parable mean?
The "Rich Man" represented the Pharisees. See verse 14.
The begger "Lazarus" represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. See Luke 18:11, John 7:49, Matt 21:31,32.
Their deaths also were symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God while being tormented by the judgement messages being delivered by the ones whom they had despised. Acts 5:33: 7:54.
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Originally posted by Rajk999================
Youre a false teacher.
Please move on. Thanks.
Youre a false teacher.
Please move on. Thanks.
===================
If that is the best rebuttal to Luke 14:15-24 you can come up with, that is pitiful.
You're really ignorant for a 40 year student of the Bible.
In response to a few earlier posts:
sheoul in the old testament means the grave or death; perhaps by extension spiritual death.
hades from the new testament is of course a greek word used to convey the place were souls rest during the afterlife. not necessarily a place of suffering
hell from the new testament is Gehenna (sic) which was a burning garbage pile outside the city of Jerusalem, and represents spiritual death.
The lake of fire is what it says it is (literal translation). My personal view or interpretation on the matter is that God is the all consuming fire: (Hebrews 12:28-29 (New King James Version)
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[a] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.)
It is my interpretation that God destroys the souls of the wicked and they meet spiritual death. An eternity of agony for 70 years of this life does not fit with the God of love that I know.
Originally posted by galveston75It is my personal view that this topic is not clearly explained in the Bible neither will belief either way affect our salvation. Also I dont believe normal sinners will experience 'eternal suffering' like the rich man in the story. So let me play devils advocate and ask you a couple questions.
Confusion about "The Rich Man & Lazarus." Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real event or something else? Did Jesus not use parables many times in his teachings? The Jerusalem Bible acknowledges that "this is a parable without any referance to any historical event."
If this were a true event, reason on this for a minute... This would mean that all those enjo ...[text shortened]... judgement messages being delivered by the ones whom they had despised. Acts 5:33: 7:54.
A parable is a story that has a literal meaning rooted in some real-life situation - a reality that people listening can understand readily. But it also has a deeper and more important spiritual meaning. Much like Aesop fables. Now you have explained the spiritual meaning of this story. What is the literal story thats rooted in reality ? Is there one?
The fact is you dont know what or where Abraham's bosom is, so any comment on that is pointless. I have heard some people say Hell cannot exist because its not possible for a fire to burn forever, and how can one fire burn millions of people. Thats a nonsense argument.
Why would Christ use a false doctrine to illustrate the point about the Pharisees changing places with common folk? Surely dozens of other stories could be used, and Christ was a talented storyteller with no shortage of ideas.
Originally posted by duecerYou are basically saying the same thing I was telling Jaywill.
In response to a few earlier posts:
sheoul in the old testament means the grave or death; perhaps by extension spiritual death.
hades from the new testament is of course a greek word used to convey the place were souls rest during the afterlife. not necessarily a place of suffering
hell from the new testament is Gehenna (sic) which was a burning garb ...[text shortened]... h. An eternity of agony for 70 years of this life does not fit with the God of love that I know.
So Jaywill thinks you are lost and ignorant and dont know the truth. He recommends :
"....a scholarly treatment of the subject I would refer you to Robert Govett's book "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" you may obtain from:
Schoettle Publishing CO. INC.
P.O. Box 594
Miami Springs, Florida 33166
Look it up on the Web first because they may have moved to North Carolina.."
Originally posted by Rajk999One of the things which Govett does in his book is directly quote leading opposers of the view and carefully analysize their arguments.
You are basically saying the same thing I was telling Jaywill.
So Jaywill thinks you are lost and ignorant and dont know the truth. He recommends :
"....a scholarly treatment of the subject I would refer you to Robert Govett's book "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" you may obtain from:
Schoettle Publishing CO. INC.
P.O. Box 594
Miami Sp ...[text shortened]... rida 33166
Look it up on the Web first because they may have moved to North Carolina.."
An effective teacher allows the opposing view to present their case. And that Govett does.
Leading Universalist Bible teachers are therefore quoted and have thier arguments critiqued. The reader gets to decide where the better case is made.
Benefitting from the time and energy of others is not at all to be despised. And just as I presented a good book on the subject Rakj999 had every right to recommend one of his own favorite treatments of the subject.
So Rakk999, stop your whining.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, if you think Jesus used a false doctrine then that's between you and him. I personly will never question Jesus about anything he said.
It is my personal view that this topic is not clearly explained in the Bible neither will belief either way affect our salvation. Also I dont believe normal sinners will experience 'eternal suffering' like the rich man in the story. So let me play devils advocate and ask you a couple questions.
A parable is a story that has a literal meaning rooted in so ...[text shortened]... other stories could be used, and Christ was a talented storyteller with no shortage of ideas.
Originally posted by galveston75Apparently you did not understand what I meant by 'devil's advocate'. I was simply playing the part of those who claim that Christ used false doctrine to make the point, and arguing their case. I am not accusing Christ of anything.
Again..What false doctrine did he use?
Clearly you dont believe in a place of torment where evildoers go after death, neither a place of peace where good people go after death.
Many Christians believe that those places exist.
Now Christ used those places (whether real or imaginary) in the story.
That would be preaching a false doctrine as far as some people are concerned.
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok..I see. Your correct because there is no such things as eternal torment. God says the wages sin pays is death. Not eternal torment. What kind of God would he be to do that to humans?
Apparently you did not understand what I meant by 'devil's advocate'. I was simply playing the part of those who claim that Christ used false doctrine to make the point, and arguing their case. I am not accusing Christ of anything.
Clearly you dont believe in a place of torment where evildoers go after death, neither a place of peace where good people go ...[text shortened]... the story.
That would be preaching a false doctrine as far as some people are concerned.
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Originally posted by galveston75=============================
Confusion about "The Rich Man & Lazarus." Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real event or something else? Did Jesus not use parables many times in his teachings? The Jerusalem Bible acknowledges that "this is a parable without any referance to any historical event."
If this were a true event, reason on this for a minute... This would mean that all those enjo judgement messages being delivered by the ones whom they had despised. Acts 5:33: 7:54.
Confusion about "The Rich Man & Lazarus." Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real event or something else? Did Jesus not use parables many times in his teachings?
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I take it as something Jesus was somehow a witness to. I believe that He saw it happen.
In no parable did Jesus use the specific name of a person. The mentioning of Lazarus by name, leads me to believe that this was not a parable but something Jesus knew had occured.
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The Jerusalem Bible acknowledges that "this is a parable without any referance to any historical event."
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But Jesus never refered to a name in a parable as far as I know.
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If this were a true event, reason on this for a minute... This would mean that all those enjoying divine favor would all fit into one mans bosom, Abraham's.
=====================================
Abraham's bosom is another word for Paradise. It is not in heaven. It is under the earth. And I will show that shortly.
When Jesus was on the cross He told the believing thief "Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)
Jesus and the believing thief on the cross beside Him, died and on that day went to Paradise. They went there on that same day.
Now Paradise, just by its definition, should be a pleasant place. This Paradise is apparently under the earth. I say this because when Jesus died he went "to the lower parts of the earth"
The Apostle Paul wrote "Now this, 'He ascended,' what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" (Ephesians 4:9)
Jesus died and went "to the lower parts of the earth". Paradise then, where Jesus and the thief went on the day they died, must be "in the lower parts of the earth".
This is also verified by that fact that Jesus said He would be "in the heart of the earth" in the same way that Jonah was in the belly of the fish:
"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)
Now Paradise in the lower parts of the earth and in the heart of the earth, must be a section of Hades. It must be the pleasant section of Hades. The reason I say this is because in Luke 16:25 the rich man died and went to Hades and could converse with Lazarus over on the comfortable side of Hades:
" ... and the rich man died. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom." (Luke 16:23)
My conclusion is that Hades is divided up into at least two components that we know of. One component is a place of torment where the rich man went. The other side that we know of is a Paradise or "Abraham's bosom" so to speak. I do not think it has to mean that all souls were congested around Abraham's chest at one time.
Both Paradise (ie. Abraham's bosom) and the place of torment are in Hades. Both are in "the lower parts of the earth" or in "the heart of the earth"
You might recall that in the Old Testament the rebellious co-conspirators with Korah descended alive into a place called Sheol (or Hades) when the ground opened up.
Numbers 16:30 - "But if the Jehovah brings about a new thing, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have despised Jehovah."
Verses 31,32 discribe how the earth opened up and Korah and company "descended alive into Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the congregation."
For length's sake I'll stop here.
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What does this parable mean?
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I think the main thing is that we deal with the important decisions of salvation while we are alive. The opportunity should be taken to be reconciled with God while we are alive. And that material wealth and comfort should not be allowed to distract us from the need for eternal redemption and reconciliation to God.
There are many lessons. That is one that I would highlight.