19 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999so - is Paul simply saying that everyone merely needs to start following Christ's commandments? Or is something else involved?
Living in the flesh means you live a worldly life and a life of sin.
To live in the spirit means to follow the commandments of Christ.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Do you have an opinion on what regeneration means?
Can you see a diffe ...[text shortened]... ce and Reformation
3. Born Again
4. Born of the Spirit
5. Regeneration
6. Holy Spirit Gifts.
and - in your view, what did Christ command that wasn't already in the Old Testament?
*as for "regeneration" - the term is creating a good deal of confusion between you and Jaywill (and myself) - perhaps Jaywill can agree here to use the term only to refer to events related to the Second Coming?
19 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillVery Bad Typo
Rajk999,
Regeneration in [b] Matthew 19:28 and in Titus 3:5 are restricted to mean being born again as Jesus spoke in John 3.
The footnote in the Recovery Version Bible on Titus 3:5 is helpful -
"The Greek word for REGENERATION is different from that for REGENERATED in 1 Pet 1:23. The only other place the word is used i ...[text shortened]... e passages out. You should not be mislead to think they nullify being born again in John 3.
I MEANT to write this above -
Regeneration in Matthew 19:28 and in Titus 3:5 are [NOT] restricted to mean being born again as Jesus spoke in John 3.
19 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by MelanerpesRead this again please :
so - is Paul simply saying that everyone merely needs to start following Christ's commandments? Or is something else involved?
and - in your view, what did Christ command that wasn't already in the Old Testament?
*as for "regeneration" - the term is creating a good deal of confusion between you and Jaywill (and myself) - perhaps Jaywill can agree here to use the term only to refer to events related to the Second Coming?
Refering to "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5 -
"The Greek word for REGENERATION is different from that for REGENERATED in 1 Pet 1:23. The only other place the word is used is Matt. 19:28, where it is used for the restoration in the millennium ... Here it refers to a change from one state to another. Being born again is the commencing of this change. The washing of regeneration begins with our being born again and continuies with the renewing of the Holy Spirit as the process of God's new creation, a process that makess us a new man."
The English word REGENERA[TED] or REGENERATION in the English NT is a translation used for MORE THAN ONE Greek word.
19 Jan 12
Originally posted by MelanerpesAre you asking questions to bait me? Thats the JW style of posting. Oh .. and you did not bother to answer my questions so how about if you answer mine and then I will answer yours.
so - is Paul simply saying that everyone merely needs to start following Christ's commandments? Or is something else involved?
and - in your view, what did Christ command that wasn't already in the Old Testament?
*as for "regeneration" - the term is creating a good deal of confusion between you and Jaywill (and myself) - perhaps Jaywill can agree here to use the term only to refer to events related to the Second Coming?
As for Jaywill using the term regeneration the way Christ used it, I cannot imagine why he would want to do that. He is convinced that he is regenerated and born of the spirit ALREADY !!
19 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillI am not understanding why you want anyone to read your personal Recovery Version of the Bible. Isn't that like the JWs using their own translation to prove their doctrines? Can you not use the KJV to prove what you say?
Read this again please :
Refering to "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5 -
[quote] "The Greek word for REGENERATION is different from that for REGENERATED in [b]1 Pet 1:23. The only other place the word is used is Matt. 19:28, where it is used for the restoration in the millennium ... Here it refers to a change from one state to ano [TED] or REGENERATION in the English NT is a translation used for MORE THAN ONE Greek word.[/b]
The KJV has two occurrences of regeneration :
Strong #G3824
paliggenesia
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
regeneration, 2
Matt 19:28, Tit_3:5
The passage from Peter has nothing on regeneration. the info from Strongs :
Strong #G313
anagennao
Total KJV Occurrences: 4
again, 2
1Pe_1:3, 1Pe_1:23
begotten, 1
1Pe_1:3
born, 1
1Pe_1:23
There is no word 'regeneration' in Peter. That is an attempt by the Living Stream Ministry to engineer their own Bible to suit their doctrine.
19 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not trying to bait you - I'm merely trying to make sense out of the argument you and Jaywill are having.
Are you asking questions to bait me? Thats the JW style of posting. Oh .. and you did not bother to answer my questions so how about if you answer mine and then I will answer yours.
As for Jaywill using the term regeneration the way Christ used it, I cannot imagine why he would want to do that. He is convinced that he is regenerated and born of the spirit ALREADY !!
You emphasize the need to follow Christ's commands - but what do you believe he commanded that isn't already in the Old Testament? What was new?
Here is where I'm really confused about your beliefs. Paul talks a lot about the futility of trying to be saved by following the Law - but what did Christ command that wasn't already in that Law? If nothing has changed in terms of being "reborn" or being "born of the spirit", how is following Christ's command any less futile?
19 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesYes I emphasize following Christ's commandments because that is what Christ said to do. Follow Him. Follow Him and you will have life eternal. Do you need references for that?
I'm not trying to bait you - I'm merely trying to make sense out of the argument you and Jaywill are having.
You emphasize the need to follow Christ's commands - but what do you believe he commanded that isn't already in the Old Testament? What was new?
Here is where I'm really confused about your beliefs. Paul talks a lot about the futility of try rn" or being "born of the spirit", how is following Christ's command any less futile?
Anyway according to Christ and ALL the Apostles, here is the what they all say is the road to salvation.
Belief in Christ
Repentance
Baptism which is water baptism ..a physical thing
Born Again which is personal spiritual thing
Good works.
ALL are essential elements. All the Apostles taught that. Nobody said that you just believe in Christ and you are saved and can never lose your salvation.
Only fools say 'I believe in Christ therefore I am saved', and proceed to ignore good works and live the same sinful life. Many Christians I know do just that. The jails are full of born again Christians. Las Vegas is full of them gambling away. On Friday & Saturday nights the bars and nightclubs are full of born again Christians partying and boozing. Sunday the churches are full of them singing how they love Jesus. Monday to Thursday, the born-again Christians ignore all of Christ commandments to do good works and feed the poor, help the needy, visit the widows and helpless etc etc. Modern Christianity with its once saved always saved teaching, has destroyed the teachings of Christ. They are hypocrites who worship with their mouths but their heart is far from him.
19 Jan 12
But are "good works" just being kind to other people and feeding them and giving them other necessities when needed? These are very important by all means, but is this all? Did Jesus show more then that?
If a ship sinks as the one in Italy just did, is it a loving thing and a "good work" to help rescue them and give them safety? Of course it is. But would it be a "good work" to warn them before hand of this impending disaster if you knew it was going to happen and possibly prepare them in advance of this and maybe they could be better prepared which might improve their survival chances?
Thought I'd give this a try again...
19 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999I agree with your main complaint - religion does seem too often end up being a hobby you do on Sunday morning while not having any impact on the rest of your life.
Yes I emphasize following Christ's commandments because that is what Christ said to do. Follow Him. Follow Him and you will have life eternal. Do you need references for that?
Anyway according to Christ and ALL the Apostles, here is the what they all say is the road to salvation.
Belief in Christ
Repentance
Baptism which is water baptism ..a physica of Christ. They are hypocrites who worship with their mouths but their heart is far from him.
As I said earlier, discussion about spirituality and religion does tend to focus a lot on doctrinal disputes and political controversies - but doesn't spend much time on the practical issues on how to do a better job doing "good works".
At the same time, I agree with Jaywill - that "abiding in Christ" is an important and central part of the process of maximizing your ability to do good.
20 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesHow do you think Christ will view these two statements of yours regarding the state of Christianity :
I agree with your main complaint - religion does seem too often end up being a hobby you do on Sunday morning while not having any impact on the rest of your life.
As I said earlier, discussion about spirituality and religion does tend to focus a lot on doctrinal disputes and political controversies - but doesn't spend much time on the practical issues ist" is an important and central part of the process of maximizing your ability to do good.
- religion does seem too often end up being a hobby you do on Sunday morning while not having any impact on the rest of your life.
- focus a lot on doctrinal disputes and political controversies - but doesn't spend much time on the practical issues on how to do a better job doing "good works".
Or should I first ask if you believe that we will all be judged and will have to account for what we do or did not do, OR are you also in the 'once saved always saved' group ?
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20 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75Ooh, this is like Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do, but on a cosmic scale.
But are "good works" just being kind to other people and feeding them and giving them other necessities when needed? These are very important by all means, but is this all? Did Jesus show more then that?
If a ship sinks as the one in Italy just did, is it a loving thing and a "good work" to help rescue them and give them safety? Of course it is. But wo ...[text shortened]... ared which might improve their survival chances?
Thought I'd give this a try again...
http://www.justiceharvard.org/
What if those you saved were in God's good graces at the moment you saved them (either way you did it) but then went on to a sinful life that cost them salvation?
20 Jan 12
Originally posted by JS357Sorry but the link is not working. Anyway I do not save anyone as no human can do that. All we can do is teach just as Jesus and all his followers did and then hopefully they will learn and in turn teach others.
Ooh, this is like Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do, but on a cosmic scale.
http://www.justiceharvard.org/
What if those you saved were in God's good graces at the moment you saved them (either way you did it) but then went on to a sinful life that cost them salvation?
20 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75That is right. JWs don't lead anyone to salvation in Christ the Lord.
Sorry but the link is not working. Anyway I do not save anyone as no human can do that. All we can do is teach just as Jesus and all his followers did and then hopefully they will learn and in turn teach others.
20 Jan 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999here's the dilemma.
How do you think Christ will view these two statements of yours regarding the state of Christianity :
- religion does seem too often end up being a hobby you do on Sunday morning while not having any impact on the rest of your life.
- focus a lot on doctrinal disputes and political controversies - but doesn't spend much time on the practical issu ount for what we do or did not do, OR are you also in the 'once saved always saved' group ?
if the Christian message is essentially that you need to do a lot of good works to impress God on judgment day - then where's the "good news"? God is going to be very demanding because he's God. The standard is going to be perfection - are any us going to measure up?
on the other hand, if the Christian message is essentially that once you're baptized, you're totally reconciled with God and everything's taken care of - then you have the problem you describe - Sunday morning Christians who spend the rest of their time "boozing".
both of these views are problematic and don't seem to reflect what the scriptures are saying. Maybe its because we aren't viewing "sin" the right way.
Paul speaks a lot about sin being a kind of slavery - and presents the gospel as offering a way to become free from this slavery - instead of being a slave to sin, one is set free to become a "slave" to righteousness. Similarly, sin is often compared to having an illness that greatly limits you're ability to function - while the gospel is offered as a way to become healed of this illness.
This is why the gospel puts so much emphasis on Jesus' healings - the forgiveness of sin is essentially Christ's effort to make people whole and restore their relationships with God and with each other. Indeed - the word "salvation" itself comes from the word for healing (essentially it means "salving" the wounds caused by sin). And what happens as this healing occurs? - One becomes increasingly free to do all sorts of good works - and this brings an increase in love-joy-peace.