Originally posted by MelanerpesBut are "good works" just being kind to other people and feeding them and giving them other necessities when needed? These are very important by all means, but is this all? Did Jesus show more then that?
[/i]regarding "good works" - consider Paul's discussion of love in 1 Cor 12
moving mountains -- giving away everything one owns - handing one's body over -- these may be good works (indeed extraordinarily good works) - but if it is not motivated by love, even these works are merely the clanging of gongs and cymbals.
another example is from the Sermo ...[text shortened]... ple of giving a dinner for people who are poor and cannot afford to return the favor.
If a ship sinks as the one in Italy just did, is it a loving thing and a "good work" to help rescue them and give them safety? Of course it is. But would it be a "good work" to warn them before hand of this impending disaster if you knew it was going to happen and possibly prepare them in advance of this and maybe they could be better prepared which might improve their survival chances?
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Originally posted by Rajk999[/i]the two great commandments -- to love the Lord your God with all your heart... and to love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree with your interpretation of the parable of the talents, although I did not view it that way before. I disagree however with your conclusion that there is any chicken and egg element here. Why? Because I cannot remember Christ saying anything resembling this ..
[i] .. in order to do truly good works, you first need to have God's love within you Works, and
Truly Good Works ?
If there is I would be interested in seeing the reference.
Jaywill's discussion about "abiding in Christ" seems to be focused on the importance of loving God (things like prayer, worship, thanksgiving, rejoicing etc) - while you emphasize the need to focus more on the importance of loving your neighbor
But it seems that the effort to "love God" should impel you to love your neighbor - and the effort to "love your neighbor" should impel you to love God.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ is alive in those who do his will.
Christ is not alive in those who do not do his will.
Christ is alive in those who do his will.
Christ is not alive in those who do not do his will.
Christ is alive from the dead PERIOD.
Christ is alive in those who receive Him.
Christ is practically expressed from within those who live Christ.
If you are regenerated, BORN of the Spirit, your failing to follow Christ does not cause Him to no longer be alive or indwelling. That could not be any more than I can become unborn.
It is FAR FAR better to teach new believers that Christ within them will never leave them. Teaching an Arminian salvation like an elevator is not only not true but does not help young Christians to grow spiritually and serve well.
Your "Saved today because you do His will" then "not saved tomorrow because you do not His will" followed by "Saved again on Wes because of doing his will" followed by "Not saved again Wes night because of not doing His will" is terrible teaching.
I would never teach an "elevator salvation" - Up and Down and Up and Down --- Christ in you now, Christ not in you latter, Christ in you again, Not in you latter.
This is very bad Christian teaching.
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Originally posted by jaywillI hate to be the one to prove that your teachings are unBiblical but you are misleading people with your nonsense doctrines. Your constant use of words, terms and expressions, ideas etc which are not in the Bible is what has led you astray.Christ is alive in those who do his will.
Christ is not alive in those who do not do his will.
Christ is alive from the dead PERIOD.
Christ is alive in those who receive Him.
Christ is practically expressed from within those who live Christ.
If you are regenerated, BORN of the Spirit, your failing to follow Christ ist in you again, Not in you latter.
This is very [b]bad Christian teaching.[/b]
First .. the word regenerated is not in the Bible [KJV]. The word regeneration is used by Christ once
Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Christ's words are clear. Regeneration takes place only at his second coming.
The expression 'born of the spirit' is used by Christ twice ..
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
So Jaywill, dont behave that you have any clue who is regenerated and who is not. And since you dont know, telling people that they are saved when only Christ knows who is saved and who is not is definitely false teaching. As for BAD teachings there is only one type .. those teachings that are not taught by Christ or the Apostles.
Originally posted by Rajk999This site says 'regeneration" is at Titus 3:3-7 and it discusses the Greek word.
I hate to be the one to prove that your teachings are unBiblical but you are misleading people with your nonsense doctrines. Your constant use of words, terms and expressions, ideas etc which are not in the Bible is what has led you astray.
First .. the word regenerated is not in the Bible [KJV]. The word regeneration is used by Christ once
[i]Mat_19: ...[text shortened]... ings there is only one type .. those teachings that are not taught by Christ or the Apostles.
http://www.theopedia.com/Regeneration
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. "
Originally posted by JS357Paull used the word regeneration once as well.
This site says 'regeneration" is at Titus 3:3-7 and it discusses the Greek word.
http://www.theopedia.com/Regeneration
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior app ...[text shortened]... being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. "
Do you think that passage contradicts what Christ said about regeneration taking place at his second coming?
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Originally posted by Rajk999
I hate to be the one to prove that your teachings are unBiblical but you are misleading people with your nonsense doctrines. Your constant use of words, terms and expressions, ideas etc which are not in the Bible is what has led you astray.
First .. the word regenerated is not in the Bible [KJV]. The word regeneration is used by Christ once
[i]Mat_19: ings there is only one type .. those teachings that are not taught by Christ or the Apostles.
[/i] I hate to be the one to prove that your teachings are unBiblical but you are misleading people with your nonsense doctrines. Your constant use of words, terms and expressions, ideas etc which are not in the Bible is what has led you astray.[/i]
First .. the word regenerated is not in the Bible [KJV]. The word regeneration is used by Christ once
Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In refering to Matthew 19:28 all you have succeeded in doing is to demonstrate that some New Testament words have more than one connotation. That is all.
Here in Matthew 19:28 the word "regeneration" does not refer to being born again. It refers to a restoration of nature and the world at the second coming of Christ. See also Acts 3:21.
Speaking of the intervening time of the church age Peter says - "[Christ] Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the RESTORATION of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old." (Acts 3:21)
I am happy to acknowledge that Jesus spoke of the restoration or "regeneration" of the earth in the Messianic kingdom of 1,000 years. He returns and nature and the earth undergo a substantial renewing to that environment approaching the Edenic world of Adam and Eve. This "regeneration" was spoken of very much by the Old Testament prophets.
Your attempt to portray this as the ONLY proper connotation of "regeneration" fail.
The Apostle Peter speaks of the Christians "having been regenerated" already well before this millennial time -
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has REGENERATED us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead ..." ( 1 Peter 1:3)
Through the resurrection of Christ from the dead man can be "REGENERATED" as in BORN ANEW or BORN AGAIN. He need not wait until the second coming of Christ. The renewing starts within his innermost being of his human spirit. This is the being "born of the Spirit" and being "born again" that Jesus spoke of in John 3.
Once again, Peter points to the Christians' PAST of having received the divine SEED of life -
" .... having been REGENERATED not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Peter 1:23)
So BEFORE the "regeneration" of Christ ruling from Jerusalem at His second coming, with the twelve apostles who will "also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28) , there is the basic entrance into the kingdom of God by receiving the seed of divine life through believing the word of God. This implanted seed of divine life causes the regeneration of being born again. And Peter discribes it as "a living hope" because Christ is actually living within the receiver.
The bottom line is that our word "regeneration" simply has more than ONE connatation in the New Testament. You cannot exploit this to deny the born again experience.
Christ's words are clear. Regeneration takes place only at his second coming.
As noted above Christ's leading apostle speaks of "regenerated" unto a living hope all during the church age BEFORE the second coming of Christ. And the rest of the passage is enlightening -
" ... according to His great mercy has REGENERATED us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance, incorruptible and undefilted and unfading, kept in the heavens for you, who are being guarded by the power of God through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time." (1 Pet. 1:4b,5)
1.) Those REGENERATED possess and await an "inheritance".
2.) It is already incorruptible and undefiled.
3.) It is kept for them in heaven for Jesus is in Heaven until the time of the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21).
4.) The power of God guards this inheritance until its manifestation "at the last time".
So it is quite evident. The new birth is the REGENERATION and the FORETASTE of something more to come. That is something of the earth wide restoration to be revealed in the last time.
Of course we do not discard those things taught by the Apostle Peter. And these particular things completely agree with Christ's words about being "born again" to be able to see the kingdom of God in John 3.
The expression 'born of the spirit' is used by Christ twice ..
Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh_3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Right. And both times He is refering to the same "REGENERATED" that Peter taught:
1.) REGENERATED unto a living hope through Christ's resurrection (1 Pet. 1:3)
2.) REGENERATED by incorruptible seed through the living and abiding word of God ( 1 Pet. 1:23)
All four of these references refer to the regeneration taking place during the church age between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the second coming of Christ.
So Jaywill, dont behave that you have any clue who is regenerated and who is not.
Hold it right there.
I do not claim to know in every instance WHO is regenerated and WHO is not. In the last analysis ONLY God knows that.
1.) It is true that only God knows that a person is really regenerated when others cannot detect that he is.
2.) That is NOT an excuse that we should not seek or teach others to be certain that they have been regenerated. And this would be born out in the Apostle John's writings.
"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
Contrary to your heretical tendency, there is no encouragement for people to be unsure, uncertain, vague, confused, wishy washy, or obscure about having received the divine eternal life.
Quite to the contrary, the firmer the foundation of assurance in this the better a base from which to grow and mature. Not knowing is not humility.
So while we are happy to acknowledge that there are many people who are born again but only God knows for sure, we do not teach that this should be the norm. Nor do we use Matt. 19:28 to try to deny that being born again exists.
I count that as a mistake at best and wicked false teaching at worst.
And since you dont know, telling people that they are saved when only Christ knows who is saved and who is not is definitely false teaching.
That is not at all the spirit of the New Testament.
We do not see Jesus attempting to leave the disciples in the dark.
And John is emphatic that his motive in writing is that we may have life in His name, no if, and, and but about it.
" But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." ( John 20:31)
The Gospel of John is not trying to leave the reader puzzled and ambiguous about the result in believing into Jesus the Son of God. John wants you to know that if you thus believe in Jesus the Son of God, you will have life in His name.
You seek to make vague what Christ and His apostle sought to make clear.
As for BAD teachings there is only one type .. those teachings that are not taught by Christ or the Apostles.
And since I have shown you that you cannot use Matthew 19:28 to deny that regeneration is to occur to those who believe in Christ in the church age, you should drop that bad teaching.
If I did not give attention to the "regeneration" in Titus 3:5,6 in this post, I will discuss it latter.
Originally posted by jaywillOnce you start twisting what Christ said I will have no choice but to back off from the discussion and leave you in your false doctrines.
[quote] [/i] I hate to be the one to prove that your teachings are unBiblical but you are misleading people with your nonsense doctrines. Your constant use of words, terms and expressions, ideas etc which are not in the Bible is what has led you astray.
First .. the word regenerated is not in the Bible [KJV]. The word regeneration is used by Christ ...[text shortened]... in this post, I will discuss it latter.
But before I go let me tell you that :
- water baptism is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
- repentance and being reformed is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
- being born again is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
- a few select people may have Holy Spirit gifts [not the fake pastors who speak in tongues to fool the congregation] .. but still that is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
Im pretty sure you believe that you have been regenerated and you are born of the spirit, so I leave you with this ..
Are you flesh and blood? Yes ? Then you are not regenerated.
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Rajk999,
Regeneration in Matthew 19:28 and in Titus 3:5 are restricted to mean being born again as Jesus spoke in John 3.
The footnote in the Recovery Version Bible on Titus 3:5 is helpful -
"The Greek word for REGENERATION is different from that for REGENERATED in 1 Pet 1:23. The only other place the word is used is Matt. 19:28, where it is used for the restoration in the millennium ... Here it refers to a change from one state to another. Being born again is the commencing of this change. The washing of regeneation begins with our being born again and continuies with the renewing of the Holy Spirit as the process of God's new creation, a process that makess us a new man."
Since it should be very obvious that BIRTH is only the BEGINNING of a life, being spiritually born again is a BEGINNING which calls for GROWTH and MATURATION.
The process of growth and maturation following receiving new birth includes a washing and renewing of the soul in the Holy Spirit. This is like a process of transformation as the Holy Spirit gains more and more enfluence over the personality.
This is what Paul refers to as "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit".
This reconditioning is a life long process. It is a saving as a continuous remodeling, remaking, reconditioning with divine life.
The washing of regeneration here purges away all the things of the old nature of our old man. It renews through by imparting more and more of something new into the soul, into the personality.
So the believers are passing from an old state into a wholly new one, given growth is normal and unobstructed. So both the washing of regeneation and the renewing of the Holy Spirit are continually working in the focused Christian throughout his life until its completion of a whole new creation.
You have actually done a service to point these passages out. You should not be mislead to think they nullify being born again in John 3.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Once you start twisting what Christ said I will have no choice but to back off from the discussion and leave you in your false doctrines.
But before I go let me tell you that :
- water baptism is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
- repentance and being reformed is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the I leave you with this ..
Are you flesh and blood? Yes ? Then you are not regenerated.
Once you start twisting what Christ said I will have no choice but to back off from the discussion and leave you in your false doctrines.
You may back off. But you won't be here to agree or disagree as I continue the discussion.
And I hope if you do disagree it is with something that I actually SAID and not with stuff you assume I am saying. Case in point below.
But before I go let me tell you that :
- water baptism is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
It sounds like you are arguing against "baptismal regeneration". I have not and do not advocate that doctrine if you are speaking what I think you mean by BAPTISM = REGENERATION.
If you debate me it should be on something I actually taught.
- repentance and being reformed is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
Same as above. Are you speaking with me now or with someone else ?
Repentence is related. But an exact equivalence of REPENTANCE = BORN AGAIN I did not propose.
- being born again is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
Here I disagree and I think I proved my point already.
You succeeded in telling me something that I already knew a long time ago, YEARS ago ! Regeneration has more than one connotation in the New Testament.
- a few select people may have Holy Spirit gifts [not the fake pastors who speak in tongues to fool the congregation] .. but still that is NOT regeneration neither is it the same as 'born of the spirit'
A lot of things can be faked. I never denied that.
Im pretty sure you believe that you have been regenerated and you are born of the spirit, so I leave you with this ..
I KNOW that I have been born again.
But I also know that I still need the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5 style ) and renewing of the Holy Spirit as a life long and on going process.
False humility and saying I don't know that Christ has entered my heart, doesn't help that process.
Having a firm assurance that you stand in Christ forever is the needed foundation for further maturation to take place.
Suppose after 25 years a person was not certain that he was BORN ??
No, no, no Rajk999. Both the NT and history of the expriences of Christians bears out that it is better to be assured that you have BEEN born again, if that is indeed the case.
Are you flesh and blood? Yes ? Then you are not regenerated.
No, no, no Rajk999.
The recipients of these two passages were still in their flesh and blood -
" ... who according to His great mercy HAS REGENERATED US unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." ( 1 Peter 1:3)
"Having BEEN REGENERATED not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.' (1 Pet. 1:23)
The audience here are Christians quite still in their physical bodies during the church age.
WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW .... IS THE REDEMPTION OF THE PHYSICAL BODY.
That is either physical resurrection and rapture or glorification - transfiguration. This will occur at the second coming of Christ.
" ... our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will TRANSFIGURE the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself (Phil.3:20,21)
See also First Corinthians 15:51-54
Originally posted by jaywillYou are drowning the readers in long drawn-out analyses about this verse and that verse and the other, when the facts can be put in simple sentences the way Christ and Paul spoke.Once you start twisting what Christ said I will have no choice but to back off from the discussion and leave you in your false doctrines.
You may back off. But you won't be here to agree or disagree as I continue the discussion.
And I hope if you do disagree it is with something that I actually SAID and not with stuff you assume I am ...[text shortened]... to Himself (Phil.3:20,21)
See also First Corinthians 15:51-54 [/b]
None of the Disciples or Apostles or Paul were regenerated. Many had Holy Spirit gifts. Regeneration according to Christ takes place at his second coming. Regeneration changes you from being 'born of flesh' to being 'born of the Spirit'. Nothing you can do here regenerates you. Not baptism, not repentance not being born again. Regeneration is the same as being 'Born of the Spirit". It is done by God and it changes you to a Spirit Person....
Christ said : That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:6-8)
Are you like the wind blowing? Are you a spirit? NO ?? Then you are not yet regenerated according to the definition given by Christ.
Your earthly and man-made definitions and interpretations of what regeneration means are fallible and incorrect.
Originally posted by Rajk999I am just trying to keep up with the general thrust of the conversation. Here and there along the way, I look something up.
Paull used the word regeneration once as well.
Do you think that passage contradicts what Christ said about regeneration taking place at his second coming?
Originally posted by Rajk999Paul speaks often about "living in the flesh" vs "living in the spirit" - (especially Romans 8)
You are drowning the readers in long drawn-out analyses about this verse and that verse and the other, when the facts can be put in simple sentences the way Christ and Paul spoke.
None of the Disciples or Apostles or Paul were regenerated. Many had Holy Spirit gifts. Regeneration according to Christ takes place at his second coming. Regeneration changes y ...[text shortened]... ade definitions and interpretations of what regeneration means are fallible and incorrect.
in your view, what does Paul mean by this?
Originally posted by MelanerpesLiving in the flesh means you live a worldly life and a life of sin.
Paul speaks often about "living in the flesh" vs "living in the spirit" - (especially Romans 8)
in your view, what does Paul mean by this?
To live in the spirit means to follow the commandments of Christ.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Do you have an opinion on what regeneration means?
Can you see a difference between/among the following :
1. Baptism
2. Repentance and Reformation
3. Born Again
4. Born of the Spirit
5. Regeneration
6. Holy Spirit Gifts.