20 Jan 12
Originally posted by MelanerpesIm busy now but when I have the time I will give you a longer reply. Just one question which I hope will make you think.
here's the dilemma.
if the Christian message is essentially that you need to do a lot of good works to impress God on judgment day - then where's the "good news"? God is going to be very demanding because he's God. The standard is going to be perfection - are any us going to measure up?
on the other hand, if the Christian message is essentially tha ...[text shortened]... all sorts of good works - and this brings an increase in love-joy-peace.
Was there such a dilemma in the time of Christ or Paul?
NO !
So where and when did this dilemma start?
20 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999actually - I think the dilemma did exist during the time of Paul - and Romans seems to have been the final result of Paul's effort to resolve it.
Im busy now but when I have the time I will give you a longer reply. Just one question which I hope will make you think.
[b]Was there such a dilemma in the time of Christ or Paul?
NO !
So where and when did this dilemma start?[/b]
Paul was emphatic in his belief that Christian salvation was not to be based on the old Mosaic Law or even "Law" in general - and he faced a great deal of opposition from his critics, the "Judaizers" who argued that by doing this, Paul was essentially calling for spiritual lawlessness.
In Romans, Paul lays out the resolution to this dilemma - arguing first that, while the Law itself is good, any effort to achieve salvation by following the Law is futile and just ends up making matters worse. He then lays out the alternative of "justification by faith" - and then explains why this is NOT a call for spiritual lawlessness.
This is pretty much the dilemma I posed - the gospel cannot be reduced to just trying to follow another set of laws - but it cannot just be a matter of "we're saved - now bring on the booze!!"
21 Jan 12
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I am not understanding why you want anyone to read your personal Recovery Version of the Bible. Isn't that like the JWs using their own translation to prove their doctrines? Can you not use the KJV to prove what you say?
The KJV has two occurrences of regeneration :
Strong #G3824
paliggenesia
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
an attempt by the Living Stream Ministry to engineer their own Bible to suit their doctrine.
I am not understanding why you want anyone to read your personal Recovery Version of the Bible. Isn't that like the JWs using their own translation to prove their doctrines? Can you not use the KJV to prove what you say?
The KJV has two occurrences of regeneration :
Strong #G3824
paliggenesia
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
regeneration, 2
Matt 19:28, Tit_3:5
The passage from Peter has nothing on regeneration. the info from Strongs :
Strong #G313
anagennao
Total KJV Occurrences: 4
again, 2
1Pe_1:3, 1Pe_1:23
begotten, 1
1Pe_1:3
born, 1
1Pe_1:23
There is no word 'regeneration' in Peter. That is an attempt by the Living Stream Ministry to engineer their own Bible to suit their doctrine.
The Recovery Version is one of a number of good English translations. It may seem that I am promoting it for its own sake. I may be promoting use of it, but not for its own sake. The translations is good and the study notes are very helpful.
If you constantly refered to King James Version you or someone else could complain that I am promoting KJV.
Now, there is nothing in your Strong's info that surprises me, much less saves your errors of denying the church age, regnerated.
All you have told me is that KJV translates 1 Pet. 1:3,23 carried the Endlish translation - "BEGOTTEN" or "BORN AGAIN" for ANAGENNAO
1.) That does NOTHING to rescue your heresy of NO church age being born again.
2.) Establish that many English translations chose "begotten" or "born again" over another word.
New International Version (©1984)
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.
English Standard Version (©2001)
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
International Standard Version (©2008)
For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish-by the living and everlasting word of God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
As persons who have been born again, not from fallible seed, but that which is infallible, by the living word of God which stands for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You have been born again, not from a seed that can be destroyed, but through God's everlasting word that can't be destroyed. That's why [Scripture says],
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.
American King James Version
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and stays for ever.
American Standard Version
having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.
Darby Bible Translation
being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God.
English Revised Version
having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.
Webster's Bible Translation
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Weymouth New Testament
For you have been begotten again by God's ever-living and enduring word from a germ not of perishable, but of imperishable life.
World English Bible
having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever.
Young's Literal Translation
being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age;
It is simply a Red Herring to point out that it may be atypical that BORN - AGAIN could is rendered RE-GENERATED in another English translation of First Peter.
If you wish to stick to BEGOTTEN or BORN AGAIN with First Peter, you can explain how that in any way establishes your point that there is no REGENERATION except that after the second coming of Christ.
"As NEWBORN babes, long for the guiless milk of the word in order that you may GROW unto salvation" (1 Peter. 2:2)
argues that the RE- GENERATED or born again of 1 Peter 1:3,23 is the beginning of spiritual life, a begetting BEFORE the second coming of Christ, on an individual level. And it includes a "tasteing" of the Lord as a subjective partaking of Him.
"As new born BABES, long for the guiless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, if you have TASTED that the Lord is good."
If you want to argue that REGENERATED is an improper rendering to English of the Greek word there in First Peter, then make your case why.
Bottom line - I only see two grumbling Red Herrings about Living Stream Ministry and the Recovery Version. I do not see any salvaging of your theory that the only regeneration takes place after the second coming of Christ.
This French Translation uses a word that would be English regenerated -
1 Pet. 1:23 (Ostervald French)
puisque vous avez été régénérés, non par une semence corruptible, mais par une semence incorruptible, par la parole vivante et permanente de Dieu.
So also this Italian translation
1 Peter 1:23 RIV
Riveduta 1927 (Italian)
poiché siete stati rigenerati non da seme corruttibile, ma incorruttibile, mediante la parola di Dio vivente e permanente.
21 Jan 12
4 edits
ANAGENNAO - (copied without permission from Strong's Online Concordance)
anagennaó: to beget again
Original Word: ἀναγεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anagennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ag-en-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget again, beget into a new life
Definition: I beget again, beget into a new life.
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth" ) – properly, born-again or "born from on high."
313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above" ) is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).
[My emphasis]
21 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIs there anything Christ says that you accept or do you re-interpret everything. I asked you two questions which you refused to answer.
[quote] I am not understanding why you want anyone to read your personal Recovery Version of the Bible. Isn't that like the JWs using their own translation to prove their doctrines? Can you not use the KJV to prove what you say?
The KJV has two occurrences of regeneration :
Strong #G3824
paliggenesia
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
regeneration, 2
M ile, ma incorruttibile, mediante la parola di Dio vivente e permanente.
1. Are you flesh and blood?
2. Are you like the wind ?
Christ said :
Joh 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
If the answers to above questions are NO then you are not yet born of the spirit.
21 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there anything Christ says that you accept or do you re-interpret everything. I asked you two questions which you refused to answer.
1. Are you flesh and blood?
2. Are you like the wind ?
Christ said :
Joh 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom ...[text shortened]... t.
If the answers to above questions are NO then you are not yet born of the spirit.[/b]
Is there anything Christ says that you accept or do you re-interpret everything. I asked you two questions which you refused to answer.
I am not aware of any question you have asked me that I "refuse" to answer.
1. Are you flesh and blood?
This is not a difficult question. Certainly part of me is flesh and blood. I am a three part being composed of two immaterial parts and a material part -
spirit (immaterial) and soul (immaterial) and body (material)
First Thessalonians 5:23 - And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may spirit and soul and body be preserved complete without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2. Are you like the wind ?
Christ said :
Joh 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
If the answers to above questions are NO then you are not yet born of the spirit.
I have news for you - No one can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit.
"THEREFORE I MAKE KNOWN TO YOU THAT NO ONE SPEAKING IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD SAYS, JESUS IS ACCURSED; AND NO ONE CAN SAY, JESUS IS LORD ! EXCEPT IN THE HOLY SPIRIT." ( 1 Cor. 12:3)
I don't think your questions about the "wind" in John 3:5-8 is that terribly relevant to the issue whether I answer yes or no.
What is more relevant is that I confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, my Lord, the ONLY Lord, the Lord of the universe - JESUS IS LORD. I am pretty sure that only in the Holy Spirit within my human spirit can I make such a confession.
I know that I have been born again or I would not KNOW that Jesus Christ is Lord.
My next post to you will be on Titus 3:5 .
21 Jan 12
2 edits
Titus 3:4-6 - But when the kindness and the love to man of our Savior God appeared (v.4)
Not out of works of righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (v.5)
Whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our savior ... (v.6)
1.) Salvation here (REGARLESS of the definition of "regeneration" ) IS - "NOT OUT OF WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE DID".
2.) The salvation is do to "our Savior God" (v.4).
3.) Apparently "our Savior God" is the same Savior as "Jesus Christ our Savior" .
4.) The "REGENERATION" I agree is not exactly the BORN AGAIN experience of John 3. But we certainly should regard being born again as the commencement of a that regeneration spoken of in the Titus passage. That is because it involves " washing ... and ... renewing of the Holy Spirit Whom He poured out upon us richly."
This pouring out of the Holy Spirit certainly refers to the beginning of the church age in the book of Acts.
5.) The "WHOM" of the Holy Spirit certainly also indicates this One being poured out is the Third of the Triune God - a Living "Person", ie. God the Holy Spirit.
6.) The pouring out of the Holy Spirit into the hearts of the believers is what enables them to confess that God is their "Abba Father" indicating a new life relationship. This also indicates that the regeneration spoken of in Titus 3:5 at least commences with the BORN AGAIN experience in which man is initially brought into the divine family.
"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father! " (Gal. 4:6)
" ... the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." (Rom. 5:5b)
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Rom 8:16)
I think we can safely assume that the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit is ONLY taking place, in Titus 3:5, upon those who have rececived the Holy Spirit. They have therefore STARTED in this ongoing process of renewing and regeneration by being born of the Spirit.
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillThe terrible teachings is in the first three words
.. Your "Saved today because you do His will" then "not saved tomorrow because you do not His will" followed by "Saved again on Wes because of doing his will" followed by "Not saved again Wes night because of not doing His will" is [b]terrible teaching.
.[/b]
"Your saved today .."
Its a lie for a church leader to tell any Christian that he is saved. You yourself admits [when your back is against a wall] that NOBODY KNOWS BUT CHRIST.
So if you desist from lying to followers and tell them the TRUTH which is that their salvation is between them and Christ then you wont have a problem.
22 Jan 12
7 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
The terrible teachings is in the first three words
"Your saved today .."
Its a lie for a church leader to tell any Christian that he is saved. You yourself admits [when your back is against a wall] that NOBODY KNOWS BUT CHRIST.
So if you desist from lying to followers and tell them the TRUTH which is that their salvation is between them and Christ then you wont have a problem.
The terrible teachings is in the first three words
"Your saved today .."
It is not "terrible" teaching to affirm and assure ourselves as Christians, that as to eternal perdition, we are saved. Does the Apostle Paul sound wishy washy here ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
You may call the book of Romans "terrible teaching." I am pretty sure the "terrible" teacher would be you.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)
You may call Ehpesians "terrible teaching." I am pretty sure in doing so YOU are the terrible teacher.
Now there are a number of things that these verses do NOT say. And the rest of the New Testament has not been ignored in this regard.
1.) Neither verse says that JUST being saved from eternal perdition is ALL that God desires in His saints.
2.) Neither verse says that there is no need to GROW in the spiritual life unto maturity.
3.) Neither verse says that just because one is saved one may live on any old way one likes, mocking God.
4.) Neither verse says that REWARD for cooperation with grace is assured. Ie. Having the GIFT does not garuantee receiving a REWARD.
5.) Neither verse says that the wise Father can no longer exercise discipline or punishment over His child simply because the child is eternally saved.
Maybe you are assuming that I count verses like Romans 10:9 and Ephesians 2:8,9) to imply there is no need in the normal Christian life for anything further.
Its a lie for a church leader to tell any Christian that he is saved. You yourself admits [when your back is against a wall] that NOBODY KNOWS BUT CHRIST.
I am not a "church leader". I am only a little Christian brother in the Lord's church. And it is not a lie to assure people how they may be saved as to eternal perdition.
It is inadaquate to leave new believers as babies. But I like Peter encouage all believers to long for the milk of the word that they may GROW unto the salvation not only of their human spirit but of their soul.
" Therefore putting away all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings and all evil speaklings,
As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation ..." (1 Pet. 2:1,2a)
Obviously, the exhortation is to those who have been saved, who have "tasted that the Lord is good". Obviously Peter is concerned that they do not simply continue to live fleshy and sinful lives.
Obviously, there is the need for a GROWTH as any natural BIRTH would also require GROWTH.
Obviously the GROWTH is "unto salvation" . The "salvation" in this case would be the saving of the soul in sanctification, in transformation, in conformation OUT of the lifestyles he warns against in verse 1 and into the image of Christ.
And the two passages from Romans and Ephesians , to prove that the assurance being saved from damnation are biblical, and are plentifully accompanied by other passages stressing the need for sanctification, transformation, conformation, and suitable works out of abiding in Christ.
I am beginning to realize how little you actually understand about the Christian life.
So if you desist from lying to followers and tell them the TRUTH which is that their salvation is between them and Christ then you wont have a problem.
I have not seen you salvage your heretical teachings yet.
Your attack on "regenerated" as a legitimate translation in First Peter's ANEGENNAO has failed. I pointed out that it may be atypical, but it was not lacking in other versions and it is legitimate.
This French Translation uses a word that would be English regenerated -
1 Pet. 1:23 (Ostervald French)
puisque vous avez été régénérés, non par une semence corruptible, mais par une semence incorruptible, par la parole vivante et permanente de Dieu.
So also this Italian translation
1 Peter 1:23 RIV
Riveduta 1927 (Italian)
poiché siete stati rigenerati non da seme corruttibile, ma incorruttibile, mediante la parola di Dio vivente e permanente.
You ignore these weaknesses in your critique and continue on with "business as usual" heaping more errors to your other ones.
So the LIES are yours.
Your LIE that Romans 10:9 is "terrible teaching" is refuted.
Your LIE that Ephesians 2:8,9 is "terrible teaching" is refuted.
Any many many other passages like them are also "healthy teaching".
I know now I would send exactly NO ONE to a wolf in sheep's clothing like you to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Hey, you wanted to play hardball. So you get this tone, which I would prefer not to use.
22 Jan 12
4 edits
You yourself admits [when your back is against a wall] that NOBODY KNOWS BUT CHRIST.
1.) I SAID only God knows for sure who is regenerated or born again. And it is a fact that we may mistake someone for being born again who is not. Or we may not realize that someone is born again who actually is.
2.) It was not at all a matter of me having "back against the wall".
We Christians do not have to be WISHY WASHY about the assurance of salvation because of the above facts. That would be against the spirit of the New Testament as I demonstrated.
Because the begetting FATHER is the Expert on who has been BORN of His life, is NO EXCUSE for us to encourage people to be VAGUE or UNSURE or NON-COMMITTAL about it.
" I have written these things to you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13 my emphasis)
The apostle's writing is that the Christian MAY be assured.
The apostle's writing is that the Christian MAY have confidence.
The apostle's writing is that the Christian not unecessarily go back and lay the foundation over and over and over and over again.
The apostle's writing is that the Christian would not return "to the altar" so to speak, week after week.
The apostle's writing is that we may be certain of our foundation and GET ON with the business of learning to walk and abide and bear fruit in Christ.
The apostle's writing does not teach that EVERY Christian IS certain. It is that every Christian MAY be certain.
And the apostle's writing does not negate that there could be instances in which UNBELIEVERS fool some believers that they are believers when they actually are not. God knows for sure as the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13 shows.
Admitting that God knows for sure is not a teaching "THEREFORE, O CHRISTIAN, DO NOT KNOW." That is false humility. And it is a very pernicious form of false humility when it is a cloak for some teacher's real intent is put out another Gospel message of his own invention.
22 Jan 12
1 edit
Can you see the difference between what Paul said in YOUR OWN FIRST quote, and what you said ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
And preachers in your church are telling people ..
YOU ARE SAVED NOW !
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22 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999So you are saying that when the disciples (or anyone else for that matter) where filled with the spirit and "born again" of it, that they were not saved?
Can you see the difference between what Paul said in YOUR OWN FIRST quote, and what you said ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
And preachers in your church are telling people ..
YOU ARE SAVED NOW ![/b]
Salvation is eternal, I think you are mistakenly taking the "will be" element which refers to being saved from the temporal end times judgment and confusing it with eternal salvation of your soul.
If you have an inheritence coming your way at a certain time, it is yours already and nothing can change that fact.
22 Jan 12
5 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999I am a little sad that I had to speak strongly with you. I thought to myself in prayer "Maybe I should give this fellow a benefit of a doubt. Maybe this person is just misled by some poor teachers."
Can you see the difference between what Paul said in YOUR OWN FIRST quote, and what you said ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
And preachers in your church are telling people ..
YOU ARE SAVED NOW ![/b]
Well, God knows your heart. Whatever your attitude, I will still vigorously defend the truth of the Gospel as I believe God has shown us.
Can you see the difference between what Paul said in YOUR OWN FIRST quote, and what you said ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
And preachers in your church are telling people ..
YOU ARE SAVED NOW !
First of all, where I meet we all preach. We do not have a class of clergy "preachers".
Secondly, where I meet the vast majority of us have no need to tell us that we are saved. We know it and we PRAISE, GIVE THANKS, and REJOICE in such a known FACT. Usually each Lord's Day (Sunday). However, giving thanks DAILY is not at all too much.
We live by Christ. And we stop along the way periodically to give thanks for the fact that we are eternally redeemed and born of God.
Now we come to the text itself:
Was Paul saying "You are NOT now saved. But you WILL be saved". Well, the REASON that they WILL be saved is because they are NOW saved.
"For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (v.10)
As soon as one believes in the heart - it is unto RIGHTEOUSNESS. He is justified and declared positionally righteous before God.
As soon as one CONFESSES with the mouth - it is unto SALVATION. He is saved. Because of that he can be assured that in the future He WILL be saved.
You are teaching wrongly - You are saying a man may believe in his heart that God has raised Christ from the dead, BUT he is not assured he is presently saved. If he has not the assurance now why should he have the assurance in the future ?
You are teaching wrongly - You confess with your mouth, you have no assurance today that you are saved. If you have no assurance today, why should you have assurance in the future ?
We are talking about the assurance of eternal salvation. We are not talking about the assurance of receiving a REWARD of some type, ie. to reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom.
Case in point:
"If anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a reward; If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
I will not quote the entire section. You can read it yourself in 1 Cor. 3.
1.) The AUDIENCE is Christians for certain - the church in Corinth.
2.) The subject is the examination oby Christ of one's WORKS after he became a Christian.
3.) The symbology is that worthy words are like "gold, silver, precious stones". And the unworthy works are like "wood, grass, stubble"
4.) EACH Christian without exception will have his or her works pass through a firey examination by Christ.
5.) EACH Christian is assured he or she will be saved but he or she is NOT assured that a REWARD will be granted. In fact it is possible that one would "suffer loss".
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Jesus Christ] remains, he wiwll receiuve a reward;
Is anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire." (vs. 14,15)
So we come back now to Romans 10:9,10. It is the apostle's teaching of the assurance NOT of a REWARD. It the teaching of the assurance of being SAVED.
Romans 10:9,10 is not touching the subject of reward and suffering loss of Christians. It is on Christ being the END OF THE LAW and making eternal salvation a matter of faith -
Romans 10:4 - "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.
We could go on, for it is a wonderful, wonderful chapter. This much is enough to demonstrate your case fails.
But a few more verses from this chapter show that the assurance of present day salvation is evident in Romans 10:
1.) "For the Scripture saus, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame." (v. 11)
You are erroneously saying everyone who believes on Him TODAY is still in danger of being put to shame eternally.
2.) "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is [Lord] of all [and] rich to all who call upon Him;... (v.12)
You are erroneously saying that Jew and Greek may call on Him today but He is NOT rich to them. They are still in the poverty of being uncertain of their eternal salvation.
3.) Again in verse 13, Paul reemphasizes - "For "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." " (v.13)
You are erroneously saying that you may call upon the name of the Lord, but you will not be saved.
4.) Paul says this is a "good news" - a gospel and beautiful at that - "As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the news of good things!" (v.15)
You are erroneously teaching that what Paul has said is a swindle and not good news at all. Rather the callers and the believers are left in doubt as to their stand before God today. They, according to you, DO NOT KNOW that they will be saved.
5.) Paul speaks of "the rightoeusness out of faith" - "But the righteousness which is out of faith speaks in this way ..." (v. 6)
You are erroneously teaching against the imputed righteousness based on faith. You deny justification by faith. One would have thought that Galatians and Hebrews and Acts and the Gospel of John would have already taught you the futility of perverting the revelation of justification by faith.
6.) Paul teaches that the law keeping Jews are erroneously seeking to establish thier own righteousness and not submitting to the righteousness of the new covenant, his gospel.
"For because they were ignorant of God's rightoeusness and sought to establish their own righteousness, they were not subject to the righteousness of God." (v.3)
You erroneously want Christians to continue in the same ignorance and lack of subjection to God's righteousness. No thanks. I'll take the word. I know today I am born of God. I know that I will be saved.
Whether I will recieve a reward or suffer loss in the millennial kingdom, that I will know at the examination of my Christian works at the judgment seat of Christ for Christians (See First Cor. 3)
22 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI truly find it amazing that you are reading and saying exactly what Im saying in essence and still concluding that YOU ARE SAVED NOW. You have the assurance of salvation YES. But that comes with some IFs which you admit.
I am a little sad that I had to speak strongly with you. I thought to myself in prayer "Maybe I should give this fellow a benefit of a doubt. Maybe this person is just misled by some poor teachers."
Well, God knows your heart. Whatever your attitude, I will still vigorously defend the truth of the Gospel as I believe God has shown us.
[quote] at of Christ for Christians (See First Cor. 3)
IF :
IF you believe in Christ.
IF you have faith
IF you continue with good works
IF ...
ONLY CHRIST knows who qualifies.
ONLY CHRIST knows.
Have you told anyone that they are saved? YES? Then you have lied to that person. The correct thing to say is you have the assurance that YOU WILL ONE DAY get salvation when Christ returns. NOBODY has salvation now. We all wait for that day when we SHALL BE SAVED.
Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act_11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act_15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom_9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Ti_2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
If you are telling the plain simple truth of Christ, you do not need long drawn out explanations. The truth is simple. Believe in Christ and do good works and you SHALL BE SAVED WHEN CHRIST RETURNS.