1. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 11:193 edits
    The "lake of fire" per se, is a hated, much hated concept.
    Either we have to argue that Jesus NEVER taught eternal damnation or that the understanding of some of His words cannot amount to the same.

    I have listened to many very intelligent people launch their arguments against the Gospel of Christ. Many elegant, extensively reasoned, well prepared complaints are often carefully laid out.

    I notice often that behind many of them lurks the real offense - the hated concept of God punishing forever if one is not saved.

    The reason eternal punishment is so hated, IMO, is that it represents without exception "You LOSE."

    The rejector of Christ's salvation wants to know -

    "God, can I break even ?"

    "God, can I get OUT of the whole affair of existence ? "

    "God, can you just punish me with not existing anymore?"

    If you were to demand from me the answer WHY God says if you reject Christ you must LOSE. I am not sure that I can answer that. But it appears to be the case.

    It must have to do with WHO that Person is who laid down His life for us on Calvary. I am not sure. I have contemplated it for decades, decades.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 11:26
    In the Old Testament God said that He would have war with Amalek forever. And the Scriptures says that Amalek - is " a hand against the [divine] throne." .

    Amalek represents more than a sin against God's holiness. This is perhaps easier to remedy and forgive. Amalek as "a HAND AGAINST THE THRONE" represents an un-reconciled rejection of the authority of God.

    the Bible says that God will have war against Amalek perpetually, forever. He will war with the unrepentant revolt against the authority of the Divine Throne perpetually and forever.

    Exodus 17:16,17

    " And Moses built an altar and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi;

    For he said, For there is a hand against the throne of Jah! Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation."
  3. Standard memberRemoved
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    25 Jun '17 11:44
    Originally posted by sonship
    The [b]"lake of fire" per se, is a hated, much hated concept.
    Either we have to argue that Jesus NEVER taught eternal damnation or that the understanding of some of His words cannot amount to the same.

    I have listened to many very intelligent people launch their arguments against the Gospel of Christ. Many elegant, extensively reasoned, we ...[text shortened]... aid down His life for us on Calvary. I am not sure. I have contemplated it for decades, decades.[/b]
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated.
    I think God is much more righteous than I am.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 11:473 edits
    Watchman Nee has been a help to me. He may have not been the only Christian to speak this. But I read from him that a sin against the holiness of God was not as serious as a sin against the authority of God. To reject the administration of God is to be in the category of Amelak who represented "a hand against the throne".

    Here is what Nee said about the sin against God's authority verses one against His holiness.

    SATAN’S BEGINNING

    Satan became Satan because he overstepped God’s authority. He wanted to compete with God and to stand in opposition to God. Rebellion is the cause of the fall of Satan.

    Both Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:13-17 speak of the transgression and the fall of Satan. Isaiah 14 tells us that Satan violated God’s authority, while Ezekiel 28 tells us that he violated God’s holiness. Violating God’s authority is a matter of rebellion; it is more serious than violating God’s holiness. Sin is a matter of conduct; it is easy to be forgiven of sin. But rebellion is a matter of principle; it is not easy to be forgiven of rebellion. Satan, in trying to set up his throne above that of God’s, violated God’s authority. The principle of Satan is the principle of self-exaltation. Sin’s coming into being was not the cause of Satan’s fall. Rather, Satan’s rebellion against God’s authority, for which he was condemned by God, subsequently gave rise to sin.


    [My bolding]

    Right and Wrong Are in God

    Man should not do anything out of a knowledge of right and wrong. Rather, he should do all things out of obedience. The principle of discerning good and evil is the principle of living by right and wrong. Before Adam and Eve took the fruit, their right and wrong were in God. If they did not live before God, they knew nothing; both their right and wrong were just God Himself. But after man received of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he found a source of discerning between right and wrong apart from God. As a consequence, after man’s fall, there was no need for him to seek after God. He could get along by himself. He could isolate himself from God and judge between right and wrong. This is the fall. The work of redemption enables us to turn back to God for our right and wrong.


    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
  5. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 11:571 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated.
    I think God is much more righteous than I am.
    The "torture" you often speak of, may really just be the miserable result of alienation from God.

    Since He is ultimately the Source of all, like Job, his suffering was laid at God's feet.

    If God wants to communicate with us that this miserable existence of a being forever alienated from God is a lake of fire torturing one, that is His business - to express this fate in unmistakably bad terms which no human being can possibly misunderstand.

    Get off my back.

    (Sorry checkbaiter, I thought you were Divegeester there.)
  6. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 12:121 edit
    Clarification.

    I don't imply that a sin against God's holiness is not serious.
    I merely can see something of what it means that a sin against God's authority is more serious than a sin against God's holiness.


    Another helpful section from Submission and Authority by W. Nee.

    In the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 there is the phrase, “And do not bring us into temptation.” Temptation speaks of Satan’s work. There is also the phrase, “But deliver us from the evil one.” This refers to Satan himself. Following this, the Lord said, “For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.” This is the most important declaration. The kingdom is God’s and so is the authority and the glory. Everything is God’s. What sets us completely free from Satan is seeing this most precious thing—the kingdom is God’s. The administration of the whole universe is under God. For this reason we have to learn to submit to God’s authority. No one can steal God’s glory.

    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1A
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    25 Jun '17 12:14
    Originally posted by sonship
    The "torture" you often speak of, may really just be the miserable result of alienation from God.

    Since He is ultimately the Source of all, like [b]Job
    , his suffering was laid at God's feet.

    If God wants to communicate with us that this miserable existence of a being forever alienated from God is a lake of fire torturing one, that is His ...[text shortened]... nd.

    Get off my back.

    (Sorry checkbaiter, I thought you were Divegeester there.) [/b]
    You and Kelly Jay have the same disease.
    Its called 'bigmouthtalktoomuchitis.
    The medicine for it is Gorolla tape.
    Wrap it around your mouth and hands after meals.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 12:20
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated.
    I think God is much more righteous than I am.
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated. I think God is much more righteous than I am.


    He is ultimately and eternally RIGHT. He is of infinite righteousness.

    I believe that He incarnated and was able to say to God in essence - " Let your wrath against sin fall upon Me that they may be set free, forgiven, justified."

    God is triune. With a little contemplation it is not that hard to comprehend really. We are dealing with God. We are contacting in this manner the ultimate uncreated Person - God.

    Doesn't Acts tell us that Christ is the God incarnated Who obtained the church with His own blood ?

    " Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)


    Only through incarnation - the Word Who was God becoming flesh, could the eternal God obtain the church "with His own blood".
  9. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jun '17 12:21
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You and Kelly Jay have the same disease.
    Its called 'bigmouthtalktoomuchitis.
    The medicine for it is Gorolla tape.
    Wrap it around your mouth and hands after meals.
    You have used it all to wrap it around your EYES and EARS.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    25 Jun '17 13:07
    Originally posted by sonship
    You have used it all to wrap it around your EYES and EARS.
    Typical of lazy slothful Christians ..like the 5 lazy virgins. Go get your own tape.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    25 Jun '17 13:29
    Originally posted by sonship
    The "lake of fire" per se, is a hated, much hated concept.
    As concepts go, I think it is nothing more or less than convoluted, morally incoherent nonsense.
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    25 Jun '17 14:19
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated.
    I think God is much more righteous than I am.
    Well said.
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    25 Jun '17 14:221 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    The [b]"lake of fire" per se, is a hated, much hated concept.
    Either we have to argue that Jesus NEVER taught eternal damnation or that the understanding of some of His words cannot amount to the same.

    I have listened to many very intelligent people launch their arguments against the Gospel of Christ. Many elegant, extensively reasoned, we ...[text shortened]... aid down His life for us on Calvary. I am not sure. I have contemplated it for decades, decades.[/b]
    It's not "the gospel of Christ" that you are preaching here. It's your own understanding and opinion. It's a warped horrible ideology that you are propagating.

    You can't even tell me if I'm in danger of eternal suffering by outright rejecting your teaching. Why is that?
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Jun '17 14:41
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I cannot imagine torturing someone forever because they rejected me. Not even someone I hated.
    I think God is much more righteous than I am.
    I think He is more righteous and sees the universe better than I, if He does judge evil and all that want it over love that way, who are we to tell Him no?
  15. Standard memberRemoved
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    25 Jun '17 14:59
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I think He is more righteous and sees the universe better than I, if He does judge evil and all that want it over love that way, who are we to tell Him no?
    You would be right, I cannot tell him no. But as Dive said in different words, it is your understanding of the scriptures that is at fault here.
    God is all good and in Him is no darkness....(you know the verse)
    Eternal torment is darkness. It is not in His character understanding the whole scope of the scriptures.
    I believe Satan will be tormented for a long time in the lake of fire to pay for his crimes and sin, but even he will eventually be reduced to ashes and be no more.
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