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27 Jun 17
Originally posted by FMFBring me an example of civil law which assigns "eternal punishment" to a criminal.
Is a criminal who gets executed for his crime still alive and unpunished after the sentence is carried out? No. Don't be daft. Does the fact that he no longer exists after being executed mean that he therefore escaped "judgement". No. Don't be daft.
What is MEANT in the Bible by "eternal punishment" - Non-existence?
The answer has to be No.
And that is part of the reason why human beings hate the concept of hell.
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27 Jun 17
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThings are clearer without your recap.
You seem to have lost track of the discussion. Following is a recap what had been said thus far:
ss: Man is so offended by the prospect that he cannot get away with violation of God's law.
FMF:But your ideology is that you, as a believer, are "saved" regardless of whether you are guilty of "violations of God's law". How is that anything other than ...[text shortened]... the individual would cease to commit sin.
How exactly does your response fit the discussion?
A couple of lines of exchange are going on here with a few people.
In YOUR case, you don't agree that "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near" has anything to do with repenting for not being under God's administration.
No, you don't get it at all. The ones who need to repent are under ANOTHER kingdom. God's kingdom of the heavens is drawing near because JESUS is drawing near. So we and they need to repent to be under God's adminstration - coming with Jesus.
That is why He is called "Lord".
That's the portion of the discussion I am presently having with you.
The disciples of Jesus have been transferred out of the authority of darkness and into the kingdom of the Son of God's love.
" Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins;" (Col. 1:13,14)
Originally posted by sonshipI think you'll find it is only Christians who believe in the concept of "Hell" you propagate. And even then, clearly not all. Me for example, I don't find your concept believable or even coherent, not in the slightest. I cannot 'hate' things I do not believe exist. I think your philosophy/ideology is ludicrous. If you want to deflect by characterizing this lack of belief as "hate" on my part ~ to poison the well, as it were ~ then you ought to know it's water off a duck's back.
And that is part of the reason why human beings hate the concept of hell.
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27 Jun 17
Originally posted by FMFIt doesn't work.
Termination of existence is a punishment whose consequences are permanent, irreversible, and thus are eternal.
Concerning the case of the followers of antichrist -
"And the smoke of ther tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev.14:11)
"The smoke of their TORMENTING ..." is what is said to be forever and ever.
That is not non-existence.
That is existence in torment forever.
dance
Originally posted by sonshipC'mon jaywill. It's a call for them to repent of their sins.
Things are clearer without your recap.
A couple of lines of exchange are going on here with a few people.
In YOUR case, you don't agree that [b]"Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near" has anything to do with repenting for not being under God's administration.
No, you don't get it at all. The ones who need to repent are under ANO ...[text shortened]... His love,
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins;" (Col. 1:13,14) [/b] [/quote][/b]
I get what you're trying to claim. It's nonsensical.
As I said, "If the repentance were truly genuine, the individual would cease to commit sin." This is what you responded to with your nonsense.
Your responses don't address this. They just side-step it. Any chance you'll actually address it?
27 Jun 17
Originally posted by sonship
It doesn't work.
Concerning the case of the followers of antichrist -
[b] "And the smoke of ther tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev.14:11)
"The smoke of their TORMENTING ..." is what is s ...[text shortened]... forever and ever.
That is not non-existence.
That is existence in torment forever.
dance[/b]You say "those who worship the beast and his image"? Does that include me?
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27 Jun 17
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Good morning. I do hope some of you slept well on it -
"The blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin."
We NEEDN'T dread eternal punishment because of the blood of Jesus shed for the redemption of man. This is called "an ETERNAL redemption". The hated concept (and it is hated as witnessed by some strong reactions here) we can STAND OVER in safety, peace, JOY and rejoicing.
The picture in Revelation 15 STANDING on the shore of the sea of glassy fire SINGING of their deliverance from both Satan's attack and God's wrath always impresses me.
" And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on t he glassy sea, having harps of God.
And they sing the son of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:2-4)
1.) This is shortly after the horrific scene of God judging the followers of Antichrist in chapter 14 preceding.
2.) The scene is reminiscent of Exodus when the Israelites stood rejoicing on the other side of the Red Sea. Pharoah and his pursing armies had been swallowed up in God's judgment. But God's people had PASSED THROUGH completely unharmed.
3.) When we do not realize the danger we may not appreciate God's wonderful work to save us. But these standing on that shore say God's manifested rescue is wonderful.
"Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty."
We really do not fathom the sheer awfulness of Satan, sin, and the rebellion against God Almighty.
My view is that the glassy sea "mingled with fire" means that finally under a crystal clear manifestation that which is being judged by God is then crystal clear as under transparent glass.
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27 Jun 17
2 edits
4.) Today we may be dull and befuddled and even annoyed that the thought of God judging us comes to us in His word. Here under the transparent sea of glass mingled with fire it says that God's judgments are manifest as perfectly righteous.
"Your righteous judgments have been manifested."
5.) The harps must represent the beauty of their worship then. But why wait? ... Believers?
" ... standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God."
6.) Jesus, while He walked physically on earth, taught WHO it is man should fear. That was not ALL that Jesus taught. But that was INCLUDED in all that Jesus also taught.
"I will tell you who to fear ..." (See Luke 12:5)
Now the overcomers of chapter 15 ask the rhetorical question - "WHO ... will not fear You name?"
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy;
for ALL THE NATIONS will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (v.4)
There is no need to wait to worship God and Christ and glorify His name.
It is exciting to get in on a good thing early.
27 Jun 17
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipEveryone - except for Judas. He will never be forgiven.
Goodnight folks.
And sleep on this [b]"The blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from EVERY sin." [/b]
He is the most misunderstood of all in the testaments. Without him, Jesus wouldn't be crucified, and the prophecy would fail.
Judas is, in fact, a hero! He did the greatest sacrificial!
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27 Jun 17
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneConcerning "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens as drawn near" ToO thinks this is nonsensical.
C'mon jaywill. It's a call for them to repent of their sins.
I get what you're trying to claim. It's nonsensical.
As I said, "If the repentance were truly genuine, the individual would cease to commit sin." This is what you responded to with your nonsense.
Your responses don't address this. They just side-step it. Any chance you'll actually address it?
C'mon jaywill. It's a call for them to repent of their sins.
What does it say ?
"Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."
If there is no kingdom of the heavens and no Divine and Righteous King then there are no sins. First the sinner must turn his heart to God.
Perhaps your understanding of "repent" there is to turn over a new leaf like making a New Year's resolution. This is a shallow and humanistic concept about repentance.
I would not argue that specific sins were repented of at the preaching of John the Baptist and of Christ. But there had to be a turn of the heart to the One to whom man is responsible - God. His is the kingdom and the power and the glory.
I get what you're trying to claim. It's nonsensical.
Actually, my claim is a quotation basically -
"Now in those days John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying,
Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."
He was "preparing the way of the Lord". That is preparing the way of the KING. Any "repenting" with no thought of the Divine King being given a way to enter is too superficial and nonsensical.
Maybe this is lost on the Humanist. But even in the Old Testament the prophet Jeremiah identified by the word of God that the TWO evils Israel had committed involved FORSAKING God and TURNING to other things to substitute for Him.
"Be appalled at this, O heavens, And be horrified; be very desolate, Declares Jehovah,
For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew out for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns, which hold no water." (Jeremiah 2:12,13)
FIRST things FIRST - that is to repent and turn back to God.
This is what your flimsy humanist theology has done - forsaken God the source of living water and hewed out inadequate broken containers of Humanist philosophy which convey no spiritual life to anyone.
Man must first repent for being for something else besides God.
Being for God is simultaneously being under His authority.
He's God and not we.