@kellyjay saidIf you have arguments against what I wrote, present them.
Oh sure you will discuss it as long as I only use arguments you want to see! Don’t pretend that you are doing anything other than sticking your head in the ground and pretending you have all the answers.
You have given me links to read and I did, I have given you videos in the past that you have watched and discussed, so I am calling BS on refusal. If you don’t want your mind changed quit pretending you are willing to debate!
Why doesn't an omnipotent and perfectly loving God intervene when an infant is dying of a terminal illness? Can't He? Won't He? Which is it?!
@ghost-of-a-duke saidLet’s line up what each of us call reality to begin with. I plan on using my thoughts and plan on using some in the video you refuse to watch.
If you have arguments against what I wrote, present them.
Why doesn't an omnipotent and perfectly loving God intervene when an infant is dying of a terminal illness? Can't He? Won't He? Which is it?!
I can say something is wrong, bad, evil that is taking place when a child dies of something early or even late in life. I know from experience exactly how it feels since we lost our first due to heart complications 13 days past her first birthday.
An Atheist belief system that is what, same ole same ole nothing new to see here, no big deal some are lucky some are not?
You willing to stick a moral absolute to children dying as bad, evil, or just the way it is, that is life with nothing but our feelings to say that this should not have happened? Some kill their healthy kids in and out of the womb on purpose for various reasons, why do you think the death of some proves God isn’t real?
@kellyjay saidYes sir, I remember you shared your personal (and very sad) experience previously, and I was tiptoeing around that. Children do however represent innocence and the analogy wouldn't have worked if I had said an adult dying of a terminal illness as it leaves the door open to the result of free will (perhaps bad lifestyle choices the person had made etc).
Let’s line up what each of us call reality to begin with. I plan on using my thoughts and plan on using some in the video you refuse to watch.
I can say something is wrong, bad, evil that is taking place when a child dies of something early or even late in life. I know from experience exactly how it feels since we lost our first due to heart complications 13 days past her ...[text shortened]... f the womb on purpose for various reasons, why do you think the death of some proves God isn’t real?
Atheists don't have a belief system. (Atheism is simply the disbelief in the divine). Personally though, every death is very much a 'big deal' especially that of a child. We strive, alongside theists, to find cures for such illnesses. We don't just shrug and accept them. There is no 'godly' reason to allow such suffering. None whatsoever. Only one of two options is possible. If God exists, He 'can't' or 'won't' intervene. He either lacks the power, or He lacks the heart.
4 edits
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI am not going to call you out on my daughter’s death don’t worry about that, I am not trying to score points due to that in our discussion! I am saying that this is more to me than a intellectual back and forth. The topic was brought up using something very near to my heart, you I actually have a great deal of respect for!
Yes sir, I remember you shared your personal (and very sad) experience previously, and I was tiptoeing around that. Children do however represent innocence and the analogy wouldn't have worked if I had said an adult dying of a terminal illness as it leaves the door open to the result of free will (perhaps bad lifestyle choices the person had made etc).
Atheists don ...[text shortened]... e. If God exists, He 'can't' or 'won't' intervene. He either lacks the power, or He lacks the heart.
The point I am making is this topic is as real as it gets, even if I never went through that! It deserves to be carefully discussed knowing that others who gone through as bad or worse may see what is said here.
I believe in God, I know you don’t, and this discussion as the rest of our lives play a part in how we end up eternally.
Do you think you can understand all that there is to know about a highly complex large equation being only shown a tiny bit of it, without seeing the whole thing? If you don’t see anything beyond your this or that only, could you ever grasp the whole?
You keep saying this or that as if that is all there is. You are even refusing to look for more!
So we are clear there are no issues between us on my part!
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIt may be a big deal but no more than that for an Atheist, feel free to correct me, but there isn't a moral good or bad, right or wrong beyond the feelings attached to who is feeling what, they could be non-pulsed by it, devastated by it, or glad about it, nothing beyond the human feelings.
Yes sir, I remember you shared your personal (and very sad) experience previously, and I was tiptoeing around that. Children do however represent innocence and the analogy wouldn't have worked if I had said an adult dying of a terminal illness as it leaves the door open to the result of free will (perhaps bad lifestyle choices the person had made etc).
Atheists don ...[text shortened]... e. If God exists, He 'can't' or 'won't' intervene. He either lacks the power, or He lacks the heart.
@kellyjay saidWhy do you use a capital A for atheist?
It may be a big deal but no more than that for an Atheist, feel free to correct me, but there isn't a moral good or bad, right or wrong beyond the feelings attached to who is feeling what, they could be non-pulsed by it, devastated by it, or glad about it, nothing beyond the human feelings.
@kellyjay saidThis is the problem kelly. I put before you a very human question. (Arguably the most difficult question an atheist can put to a theist). If God is all powerful and all loving, why won't he prevent the suffering of an innocent?
It may be a big deal but no more than that for an Atheist, feel free to correct me, but there isn't a moral good or bad, right or wrong beyond the feelings attached to who is feeling what, they could be non-pulsed by it, devastated by it, or glad about it, nothing beyond the human feelings.
To answer such a difficult question, the theist will retreat to:
1. We don't see the full picture. (To which I answer, what possible picture requires the suffering of an innocent? )
2. Free will. (To which I answer, how has free will played a part in such suffering? )
3. Who are we to say what is good or bad. (To which I answer, the Bible itself lays out quite clearly the innocence of children and the importance of love and the value of life).
@kellyjay saidfor an Atheist... there isn't a moral good or bad, right or wrong
It may be a big deal but no more than that for an Atheist, feel free to correct me, but there isn't a moral good or bad, right or wrong beyond the feelings attached to who is feeling what, they could be non-pulsed by it, devastated by it, or glad about it, nothing beyond the human feelings.
The process of developing a moral compass ~ a sense of right and wrong ~ is the same for atheists and theists.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou are also asking this in other posts which I just spent some time answering you there too. Its hard to respond to you when you are not staying on topic in a single place. It is a very human question, deserving a real answer which I'm trying to answer.
This is the problem kelly. I put before you a very human question. (Arguably the most difficult question an atheist can put to a theist). If God is all powerful and all loving, why won't he prevent the suffering of an innocent?
To answer such a difficult question, the theist will retreat to:
1. We don't see the full picture. (To which I answer, what possible pi ...[text shortened]... lays out quite clearly the innocence of children and the importance of love and the value of life).
Love is the most important thing in this universe and our ability to love, even more so than our own lives in this temporary place in the here and now. When we leave here all the grief, pain, sorrow, we have endured will pale by comparison to the eternal life ahead. You either take the whole of scripture and look at it for truth or you don't, if you pick a little here, a little there you don't have a chance in grasping what God is doing and why. God is not going to allow suffering to continue, the time for judgment is coming and after that eternity will no longer see evil and wickedness in it. All the crap we see here are all due to the choices we have made and are making and these choices do effect innocents. Drug users who prefer drugs over the safety and health of their kids could neglect or abuse the innocent to satisfy their habits. The moment God stops it, game over everyone has found themselves committed to the choices they have made in life without the possibility of repentance or grace. It is due to God's long suffering this is continuing until He can redeem as many of us as possible, before the end comes in the horrible day of the Lord.
@kellyjay said'All the crap we see here are all due to the choices we have made and are making and these choices do effect innocents.'
You are also asking this in other posts which I just spent some time answering you there too. Its hard to respond to you when you are not staying on topic in a single place. It is a very human question, deserving a real answer which I'm trying to answer.
Love is the most important thing in this universe and our ability to love, even more so than our own lives in this temp ...[text shortened]... until He can redeem as many of us as possible, before the end comes in the horrible day of the Lord.
Again, you stray away from my point to answer instead a less challenging notion. An innocent child suffering a terminal illness has nothing to do with 'the choices we have made and are making.'
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAugustine ‘s answer to your question is that children are not innocent. Their souls are just as corrupted by the fall as that of adults. Their bodies have merely not yet developed far enough to act out their corruption.
'All the crap we see here are all due to the choices we have made and are making and these choices do effect innocents.'
Again, you stray away from my point to answer instead a less challenging notion. An innocent child suffering a terminal illness has nothing to do with 'the choices we have made and are making.'
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI'm saying we get these issues due to the choices we are making. Death was due to a choice we made, all manner of illness are due to choices we make, and are making. If you are going to read scripture and blame God I suggest you read all of the scripture and look at whole instead of a text here and there!
'All the crap we see here are all due to the choices we have made and are making and these choices do effect innocents.'
Again, you stray away from my point to answer instead a less challenging notion. An innocent child suffering a terminal illness has nothing to do with 'the choices we have made and are making.'
You want to deny that God is love, you got that notion that God is love from where a soothsayer, wizard, angel, demon, an old wise man, or scriptures? If scriptures you should learn to rightly divide them!
@moonbus saidOur nature is corrupted by the fall, I cannot recall who said the following that I'm paraphrasing, it is a good thing our kids are so cute, so tiny when they are growing up. They don't know right from wrong when they are little, but do we have to teach a child to say "no", "mine", or lie? You do have to teach sharing, telling the truth over lies. What do you think some of them would do, if while they were very little kids, that they actually had the strength and power of a bear, instead of a little child. The rage they can display as a little child when they are mad, when they are upset and defiant can be intense. Just think if they had real power at that time, do you think they would be dangerous? Good thing for all concern instead of having the strength of a bear with that anger they are instead, cute in an annoying way as they are learning to cope in life. Good thing for us they got next to nothing in the range of strength to harm anyone, and we love them. 🙂
Augustine ‘s answer to your question is that children are not innocent. Their souls are just as corrupted by the fall as that of adults. Their bodies have merely not yet developed far enough to act out their corruption.