Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    12 Feb '19 22:402 edits
    For a long time, no major American politician has been willing to make
    more than the mildest criticism of Israel. Indeed, it's evidently popular
    for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/ilhan-omar-us-israel-policy-lobbying

    "Ilhan Omar should be more radical about Israel, not less.
    By focusing on lobbyists, Omar suggests that America’s interests
    are corrupted by a small clique. The truth is far worse."

    "Representative Ilhan Omar is not a vicious antisemite, she is one of
    few good things about Congress. But she was wrong to suggest this
    week that America only supports Israel because a powerful lobby
    buys off US politicians. Far from being too radical, the problem with
    that view is that it lets America off the hook. The American state needs
    no conspiracy or blackmail to encourage it to do damage around the world."

    "When Democrats dissent on foreign policy, they usually insist that
    America is a gorgeous dream poorly applied by foolish leaders....
    Bernie Sanders labels imperial adventures like the Iraq escapade “counterproductive”,
    echoing the assumption that America’s intentions are basically benign."

    "By endorsing the global Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement
    against Israel, Omar moved well beyond those Americans who criticize
    Benjamin Netanyahu’s excesses confident that Israel, their old ally,
    remains a noble endeavor now in need of wise and moderating
    counsel from Washington. She flew a different flag, supporting
    Palestinians as a people dispossessed by the facts of might and
    conquest familiar to victims of colonization everywhere."

    "This is why Omar’s recent tweet was disappointing, blaming American
    support for Israel on lobbyists’ cash. The ultimately conservative,
    reassuring effect of concentrating on the Israel lobby is this: it
    suggests that American interests are fundamentally good, but that
    they are corrupted and distorted by some small clique."

    "The deeper, tougher truth is that America supports Israel because
    at some level America is Israel; these are two settler colonies born
    in violence, condemned by their original sins and by their later
    crimes to paranoias about the revenge of the wronged. America
    needs no monied lobby to see its common cause with Israel."

    "There is an important Israel lobby in America, and it does a great
    deal of harm, though treating the problem as indigenous to a culture
    of puritanism and genocide helps even here: America’s biggest pro-Israel
    lobby group is not the largely Jewish American Israel Public Affairs Committee
    (Aipac) but the evangelical organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI),"

    "The lobby makes a just peace harder, and we should not fear condemning it;
    Democrats lining up to suggest even mentioning it is intrinsically
    antisemitic show just how cynically, how dangerously Israel’s
    supporters sometimes see antisemitism as cheap political football."

    "The Palestinian people do not inspire the world simply because they suffer.
    What we see through the cracks in Palestine is what many once saw
    in Nicaragua, in South Africa, in Vietnam: against the violence produced
    by fear, against anxious states killing in the defense of privilege,
    the best traditions of the oppressed offer a universal message.
    They prize dignity. Israel fills the land with walls and checkpoints,
    and Palestinians seek a future beyond that architecture of human misery."
  2. Joined
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    13 Feb '19 04:011 edit
    @duchess64 said
    For a long time, no major American politician has been willing to make
    more than the mildest criticism of Israel. Indeed, it's evidently popular
    for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/ilhan-omar-us-israel-policy-lobbying

    "Ilhan Omar should be more radical about Israel, not less.
    By ...[text shortened]... h walls and checkpoints,
    and Palestinians seek a future beyond that architecture of human misery."
    Actually she and you have a lot in common: you both are bigoted fools who spew hate and all that connected to both should be severely ashamed. Her party, realizing the embarrassment of her statements, correctly demanded that she immediately apologize. Unfortunately you have no guidance to encourage you to alter your shameful views.
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    13 Feb '19 04:39
    @quackquack said
    Actually she and you have a lot in common: you both are bigoted fools who spew hate and all that connected to both should be severely ashamed. Her party, realizing the embarrassment of her statements, correctly demanded that she immediately apologize. Unfortunately you have no guidance to encourage you to alter your shameful views.
    Quackquack's a well-known fanatical supporter of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.
    In fact, many diverse people--including Jews--condemn Israel for oppressing the Palestinians.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/11/freshman-rep-ilhan-omar-draws-ire-accurately-describing-how-israel-lobby-works

    "Freshman Rep. Ilhan Omar Draws Ire for 'Accurately Describing How the Israel Lobby Works'
    "Lobbies influence politics, I don't think that’s controversial to say," said
    the director of Jewish Voice for Peace"

    "A progressive Jewish group [Jewish Voice for Peace] was among the many who
    defended Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) late Sunday after conservatives and centrist
    Democrats attacked her for simply acknowledging that the American Israel Public
    Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the powerful pro-Israel lobbying group, gives millions
    of dollars to pro-Israel causes each year."

    Denying reality is normal among fanatical supporters of Israel.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    13 Feb '19 04:46
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Tlaib

    Like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib belongs to the Democratic Socialists of America.
    As a woman of Palestinian Arab Muslim heritage, Rashida Talib may face more
    reflexive blind hated than Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a Latina.
  5. Behind the scenes
    Joined
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    13 Feb '19 06:553 edits
    @duchess64 said
    For a long time, no major American politician has been willing to make
    more than the mildest criticism of Israel. Indeed, it's evidently popular
    for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/ilhan-omar-us-israel-policy-lobbying

    "Ilhan Omar should be more radical about Israel, not less.
    By ...[text shortened]... h walls and checkpoints,
    and Palestinians seek a future beyond that architecture of human misery."
    Indeed, it's evidently popular for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.




    This is not exactly true. The state of Israel has been criticised many times by American politicians for building housing units on Palestinian land, and carrying out military attacks on women and children. I agree the American government as a whole tends to display unwarranted favoritism to Israel, but the idea that Israel enjoys "unconditional support" is not accurate. I would further point out Israel supplies America with a great deal of military intelligence information.

    P.S. I would suggest that if both Ilhan Omar and other American politicians were both less radical, and willing to compromise, American middle east policy would be improved as a result.
  6. Joined
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    13 Feb '19 09:11
    @mchill said
    Indeed, it's evidently popular for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.




    This is not exactly true. The state of Israel has been criticised many times by American politicians for building housing units on Palestinian land, and carrying out military attacks on women and children. I agree the American government as a whole tends to display unw ...[text shortened]... less radical, and willing to compromise, American middle east policy would be improved as a result.
    ilhan omar radical? what planet do you live on? how is she radical in calling a fascist regime for what it is ?

    "The state of Israel has been criticised many times by American politicians for building housing units on Palestinian land, and carrying out military attacks on women and children."
    every american politician pulls their punches. ilhan omar did too. yet she is the radical one because she wears a hijab and has a certain unsuitable shade of skin.


    "I would suggest that if both Ilhan Omar and other American politicians were both less radical, and willing to compromise"
    yes, i agree. If the US wouldn't be so radical in supporting Israel and Saudi Arabia unconditionally, maybe things in the middle east would indeed improve.
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    13 Feb '19 09:20
    Oddly enough, the last (or only?) American politician with clout to stand up to Israel was the late Republican President George H. W. Bush:

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c06ac48e4b07aec5753418a
  8. Joined
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    13 Feb '19 11:071 edit
    @quackquack said
    Actually she and you have a lot in common: you both are bigoted fools who spew hate and all that connected to both should be severely ashamed. Her party, realizing the embarrassment of her statements, correctly demanded that she immediately apologize. Unfortunately you have no guidance to encourage you to alter your shameful views.
    The Dim party is the party of "I'm sorry". They are sorry for the black faces, for the sexual assaults, for the rabid anti-Semitism, etc.

    Things they are not sorry for, supporting infanticide and not accepting election results like the one for Trump. In fact, the party of Hate is rather proud of those things.

    Duchess is a perfect representative of this party. In fact, most Left wing posters here are. You could not draw them up any better if you tried.
  9. Joined
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    13 Feb '19 13:44
    @duchess64 said
    Quackquack's a well-known fanatical supporter of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.
    In fact, many diverse people--including Jews--condemn Israel for oppressing the Palestinians.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/02/11/freshman-rep-ilhan-omar-draws-ire-accurately-describing-how-israel-lobby-works

    "Freshman Rep. Ilhan Omar Draws Ire for 'Accurately Describin ...[text shortened]... to pro-Israel causes each year."

    Denying reality is normal among fanatical supporters of Israel.
    Ilhan Omar's views were so out of line she was condemned by her own party and forced to apologize. Unfortunately you don't have a party to reign in your own bigoted views and we are forced to hear your hateful views. Fortunately, my country shares the right view and your hateful anti-Western/ anti-Jewish/ Anti-American can be added to a long list of thinkers like the Nazis and Al Qaeda.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
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    13 Feb '19 15:331 edit
    The whole thing is ridiculous; Omar said something obvious - that a lobbying group which spends money to lobby and has allied groups giving money to candidates to enhance support for Israel in the US Congress might actually be somewhat successful in their endeavors. How this is "anti-Semitic" is beyond my comprehension.

    Of course, the real problem as far as political hacks like Pelosi are concerned is that these groups give just as much, if not more, to Democrats as Republicans.

    EDIT: Some background: https://qz.com/1547435/the-numbers-behind-ilhan-omars-aipac-tweet/
  11. Joined
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    13 Feb '19 16:35
    @no1marauder said
    The whole thing is ridiculous; Omar said something obvious - that a lobbying group which spends money to lobby and has allied groups giving money to candidates to enhance support for Israel in the US Congress might actually be somewhat successful in their endeavors. How this is "anti-Semitic" is beyond my comprehension.

    Of course, the real problem as far as political h ...[text shortened]... licans.

    EDIT: Some background: https://qz.com/1547435/the-numbers-behind-ilhan-omars-aipac-tweet/
    I really don't blame Omar. I mean, being from Somalia and a Muslim she has been taught hate towards Jews since she was a toddler. Most people would be just as full of hate as she is today.
  12. Zugzwang
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    13 Feb '19 20:172 edits
    @mchill said
    Indeed, it's evidently popular for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel.

    This is not exactly true. The state of Israel has been criticised many times by American politicians for building housing units on Palestinian land, and carrying out military attacks on women and children. I agree the American government as a whole tends to display unw less radical, and willing to compromise, American middle east policy would be improved as a result.
    Mchill keeps showing (at best) his abysmal reading comprehension or 'logic'.

    "Indeed, it's evidently *popular* for American politicians to express unconditional support of Israel."
    --Duchess64

    I wrote 'popular', NOT 'universal'. Mchill has wrongly attacked my statement as
    though I had written 'universal'.

    I already was well aware that *some* American politicians have criticized (in a
    token rhetorical way) Israel building more Jewish settlements, though these politicians
    have done nothing significant and concrete (pun) to stop this construction.
    Israel keeps building (illegal) Jewish settlements and gets rewarded with more US aid.
  13. Zugzwang
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    13 Feb '19 20:19
    @philokalia said
    Oddly enough, the last (or only?) American politician with clout to stand up to Israel was the late Republican President George H. W. Bush:

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c06ac48e4b07aec5753418a
    The last US President who 'stood up' to Israel in a major way was Eisenhower,
    who refused to approve the British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in 1956.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    13 Feb '19 20:222 edits
    @no1marauder said
    The whole thing is ridiculous; Omar said something obvious - that a lobbying group which spends money to lobby and has allied groups giving money to candidates to enhance support for Israel in the US Congress might actually be somewhat successful in their endeavors. How this is "anti-Semitic" is beyond my comprehension.

    Of course, the real problem as far as political h ...[text shortened]... licans.

    EDIT: Some background: https://qz.com/1547435/the-numbers-behind-ilhan-omars-aipac-tweet/
    "How this is "anti-Semitic" is beyond my comprehension."
    --No1Marauder

    Is not No1Marauder aware of the dominant extreme pro-Israeli bias of US politics?
    Or, out of expediency, does he like to pretend that the USA is 'even-handed', even
    though it's appalling to be 'even-handed' between the oppressor and the oppressed?

    Even mentioning that a pro-Israeli lobby *exists* in the USA would be denounced as
    anti-Semitic by fanatical racist supporters (like Quackquack) of Israel.

    "Denying reality is normal among fanatical supporters of Israel."
    --Duchess64

    The mainstream US media and almost all American politicians routinely accept
    whopping lies by pro-Israeli propaganda.
  15. Zugzwang
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    13 Feb '19 20:321 edit
    @zahlanzi said
    ilhan omar radical? what planet do you live on? how is she radical in calling a fascist regime for what it is ?

    "The state of Israel has been criticised many times by American politicians for building housing units on Palestinian land, and carrying out military attacks on women and children."
    every american politician pulls their punches. ilhan omar did too. yet she is ...[text shortened]... rting Israel and Saudi Arabia unconditionally, maybe things in the middle east would indeed improve.
    (Zahlanzi replied to Mchill.)

    "If the US wouldn't be so radical in supporting Israel and Saudi Arabia unconditionally..."
    --Zahlanzi

    US support for Israel is fundamentally much deeper than its support for Saudi Arabia.
    The USA gives lavish military and economic aid (technology transfer too) to Israel.
    Saudi Arabia receives no US aid, though the USA's happy to sell arms (at premium prices).

    Israel typically is the first country to which the USA exports (gives) its most advanced weapons.
    When the USA agreed to sell F-15 Eagle fighters to Saudi Arabia, the USA reassured
    Israel (which already had F-15s) that the Saudi F-15s would be downgraded so
    that they would be clearly inferior to the Israeli F-15s. Saudi Arabia had to accept
    downgraded F-15s (while paying at least as much) in order for the USA to sell them.
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