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  1. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 06:18
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8146358.stm

    And this, ladies and gents, is everyday news.

    Three police officers and two soldiers are reported to have been killed when the attackers, armed with grenades and assault rifles, opened fire.

    In one incident, in the state capital Morelia, 40 gunmen arrived in a convoy of vehicles to carry out the raid.

    The arrest of a key drugs suspect is thought to have sparked the raids
    There had already been prolonged gun battles in the city on Friday, during which suspected drug boss Arnoldo Rueda - a senior member of the La Familia Michoacana drug cartel - was arrested.

    The co-ordinated raids are being seen as a revenge attack for that arrest.

    As well as Morelia, the cities of Apatzingan, Lazaro Cardenas, Patzcuaro, Zitacuaro and Huetamo were targeted.


    Right in the Western Hemisphere, under the nose of the U.S., there's a country which is doing even worse than the Colombia of the 1980s. The international community must intervene, pronto, and the corrupt structure, through which it is possible for the world's richest man* to live in the same country with 50 million poor people, among other incoherences, must be cracked.

    * He keeps bouncing between the first, second and third place.
  2. 13 Jul '09 06:30
    Originally posted by Seitse
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8146358.stm

    And this, ladies and gents, is [b]everyday
    news.

    Three police officers and two soldiers are reported to have been killed when the attackers, armed with grenades and assault rifles, opened fire.

    In one incident, in the state capital Morelia, 40 gunmen arrived in a convoy of vehicles to carry out ...[text shortened]... ces, must be cracked.

    [i]* He keeps bouncing between the first, second and third place.
    [/b]
    And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call yellow-journalism and distortions. I already posted how much worse Columbia's homicide rate is than Mexico's.

    Here's some of the things that the grown-ups (in other words, not Seitse) are looking at when it comes to Mexico's priorities.

    The number one concern of Mexicans at this time is the economy, as you may already know, not the death of drug dealers and their accomplices with some occasional millitary, police, and civilian casualties. Though tragic, people know that more resources for the people and the government will help Mexico win its war. However, to give Seitse some ammunition and raise the level of the debate, let's talk institution building:


    http://www.cid.harvard.edu/mexico/docs/MCR_2009.pdf

    public and private institutions, devoting separate subpillars
    to each, accounting for three-fourths and one-fourth of
    the final pillar score, respectively. The public institutions
    subpillar looks at a country’s general legal framework
    (including the extent to which property rights are
    protected and enforced), public ethics standards, the
    efficiency of public administration, and the overall level of
    security (intuitively important to creating an environment
    where businesses can flourish). In turn, the private institutions
    subpillar includes elements of corporate ethics and
    accountability.
    Mexico ranked 97th for institutions, making this
    pillar the country’s second worst after labor market
    efficiency. The country fares poorly on this item when
    compared to the rest of the sample, outranking only
    laggard Russia (110th). The distance between Mexico
    and Korea (28th), Chile (37th), and South Africa (46th),
    as well as with the OECD average (5.04, as opposed to
    3.49 for Mexico), is striking. Mexico’s institutions have
    plenty of room for improvement — with one caveat:
    the pillar’s overall rank conceals important differences
    in the quality of its public and private institutions;
    the former came in 102nd place but the latter a less
    worrisome 78th.
    Institutional reforms have played a subordinate role to
    economic ones in Mexico’s national debate and strategy
    until very recently. Some have questioned this since the
    rule of law and well-functioning and trustworthy institutions
    are widely considered prerequisites for a vibrant
    market economy. Similarly, many experts believe that
    economic reforms should have been carried out in tandem
    with large-scale institutional transformations in the
    medium term.14 Institutional weaknesses have undermined
    Mexico’s capacity to reap the full advantages of
    economic liberalization in the past decade. Influential
    interest groups (monopolies, quasi-monopolies, and certain
    labor unions) have been able to hijack the political
    process and capture most of the new wealth. This has
    fuelled discontent about the results of the economic
    reforms among broad segments of the society.
    The areas of concern in this pillar include: property
    rights protection (86th),15 and weak ethical standards in
    the public sector (100th). The latter is also reflected in a
    very low trust of politicians (98th) and in the perceived
    favoritism in decisions made by government officials
    (90th). Red tape and inefficiencies remain important
    hindrances. Security is considered a problem, with the
    country ranked 123rd — Mexico’s worst showing on
    any umbrella item. Contributing factors included rampant
    organized crime (127th), violence (125th), and a
    low level of trust in the police (124th). These factors are
    believed to impose significant costs to businesses.
    Indeed, violence has been on the rise, both in traditional
    drug-trafficking centers and in other areas. In response,
    one of President Felipe Calderón’s first actions after
    being sworn in on December 1, 2006, was to deploy
    24,000 soldiers to hot spots. An underlying problem is
    the country’s extremely weak criminal justice system.
    Studies have shown that the probability of being arrested
    and brought before a judge after committing a crime is
    3.3%.16 Of all crimes reported, only 18.5% are fully
    investigated and resolved.17 About 66% of convicts
    receive jail sentences of less than three years, meaning that
    about two-thirds of resources are spent in investigating,
    prosecuting, and punishing relative less serious offences;
    felonies such as drug trafficking and homicides receive
    less attention and continue to rise.18
    A reform of the criminal justice system designed to
    improve accountability and transparency, restore trust and
    confidence among citizens, and ensure higher conviction
    rates should rank high on the national agenda. A bill
    approved by congress in February 2008 represents an
    important step; however, it is unclear whether the changes
    can be implemented. Additional desirable modifications
    would include: procedural and legal changes to reduce
    the time needed to resolve lawsuits; the creation of a
    civil service career structure in the police force and
    investigative agencies to make law enforcement more
    appealing as a profession and improve its reputation and
    thus help attract and retain talented and qualified people;
    improvements in the crime reporting process; greater
    emphasis on human rights; and an overhaul of the penitentiary
    system."





    On a side-note, one major reform in Mexico during Calderon's first three years was to overhaul Mexico's ancient court system to make the open and adversarial with defendant vs plaintiff and oral testimony like in the US. Institution-building, it's called. Still, I'm sure Seitse will find a goldmine of ammunition here with which to criticize the current state of Mexico. I would just dare him to find something that is worse because of the PAN rather than better.
  3. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 06:39 / 1 edit
    Wow...

    1. Name calling (both to the BBC and to me)

    2. Copy pasting

    3. Diverting attention from the main point of debate, by citing other countries.

    Do you know what ad hominem is, kid? Oh well, I guess it will get fixed once you become 18, uncle tom.

    *******************

    Ok, now back to the debate, if the lives of people are at stakes, is it justified that the international community intervenes?

    Is there any similarity with the unedrlying reasons behind Somalia, Rwanda, etc.?

    Any worthy posters willing to present an argument?
  4. Standard member caissad4
    Child of the Novelty
    13 Jul '09 06:58
    Mexico is a 3rd world country where the failures of capitalism are illustrated on a national scale. The level of the problems there can only be solved by the people of Mexico. It is their problem.
  5. 13 Jul '09 07:11
    Originally posted by caissad4
    Mexico is a 3rd world country where the failures of capitalism are illustrated on a national scale. The level of the problems there can only be solved by the people of Mexico. It is their problem.
    Mexico capitalist? It has been closed to trade and owned hundreds of industries through the state for decades during its import-substitution model and infant industry strategies through the lost decade of the 1980's and the recurrent crisis.

    In the last 15 years it has become more open to world trade and private investment, though it still bans private enterprises in oil, gas, and other natural resources... now THAT demonstrates socialism's failure.

    The problem will indeed be solved by the people of Mexico, but it is the problem of many nations that deal with, trade with, and neighbor Mexico.
  6. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 07:15
    Originally posted by caissad4
    Mexico is a 3rd world country where the failures of capitalism are illustrated on a national scale. The level of the problems there can only be solved by the people of Mexico. It is their problem.
    Good point and I agree with you that Mexico is a 3rd world country where capitalism shoved down the throat by classroom economists has failed miserably.

    However, on the other point: when thousands of people die and warfare takes place in the streets, wouldn't you approve the UN, for example, to patrol the conflict zones?
  7. 13 Jul '09 07:16
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Wow...

    1. Name calling (both to the BBC and to me)

    2. Copy pasting

    3. Diverting attention from the main point of debate, by citing other countries.

    Do you know what ad hominem is, kid? Oh well, I guess it will get fixed once you become 18, uncle tom.

    *******************

    [b]Ok, now back to the debate, if the lives of people are at stakes, is ...[text shortened]... reasons behind Somalia, Rwanda, etc.?

    Any worthy posters willing to present an argument?
    [/b]
    LOL!

    Good old Seitse, always good for a laugh.

    Did you try reading the actual article and making any intelligent posts?
    Would that be asking too much of your bandana-wrapped, oxygen-deprived brain?

    1. you say name-calling and then call me a racial term, "uncle tom" which you can't back up with anything at all.

    2. you attack citing sources like Harvard? you seem to prefer that everyone just talk out of their butts like you.

    3. you attack making international comparisons to give context and perspective to the debate? you seem to prefer that each country be considered in an empty vacuum with no room for perspective or comparison.


    OK, back to the debate, what exactly would anyone intervene in? The US has just started Plan Merida with Mexico, and it has more years to go. Plan Columbia took longer than that, what is your justification for giving unrealistic deadlines to Mexico?
  8. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    13 Jul '09 07:18
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Good point and I agree with you that Mexico is a 3rd world country where capitalism shoved down the throat by classroom economists has failed miserably.

    However, on the other point: when thousands of people die and warfare takes place in the streets, wouldn't you approve the UN, for example, to patrol the conflict zones?
    What good would that do?

    Better to arm insurgents. And watch the place descend another level into hell.

    On the bright side -- it's far from being a Somalia.

    Far.
  9. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 07:18
    So, any worthy posters with views other than ad hominem arguments?
  10. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 07:18
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    On the bright side -- it's far from being a Somalia.

    Far.
    It can become Somalia, though.
  11. 13 Jul '09 07:21
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Good point and I agree with you that Mexico is a 3rd world country where capitalism shoved down the throat by classroom economists has failed miserably.

    However, on the other point: when thousands of people die and warfare takes place in the streets, wouldn't you approve the UN, for example, to patrol the conflict zones?
    Coocoo!

    Mexico has not been capitalist for decades and had to first give-up its old import-substitution strategy.

    It's true what they say, the last Communist will die in a Latin American University, but if Havana and Chavez topple and their miserable failures are revealed as occurred in the Soviet Union, it may yet change the course of Latin American history.

    Not what you want to hear though, it seems.

    You'd rather make far-fetched, loony proposals... Seitse, Seitse (shakes head), poor kid.
  12. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 07:22 / 2 edits
    I am about to start reading this book, and it seems interesting.

    http://www.cceia.org/resources/journal/18_2/book_reviews/5005.html

    One theme discussed by some of the authors, including Hoffman and Coady, is the contrast between humanitarian intervention understood as mere rescue (a quick in-and-out operation) and humanitarian intervention understood as involving a long-term military presence and efforts at "nation building." This relates to a topic of growing interest, especially given the Iraq war, of jus post bellum, the justice of actions taken in the aftermath of victory in a war. As Coady observes, while mere rescue is liable to be futile, given that it does nothing to change the dynamic of the underlying social problems leading to the humanitarian crisis, an extended military stay involving regime change and efforts at nation building, given the strength of nationalism and strong feelings for local self-determination, is liable to lead to the problems of colonialism.

    Mexico, under this light, needs nation building urgently. On the other hand, though, it has been a colony already and a foreign presence won't go down smoothly. Quite a dilemma, uh?
  13. 13 Jul '09 07:29
    Originally posted by Seitse
    I am about to start reading this book, and it seems interesting.

    http://www.cceia.org/resources/journal/18_2/book_reviews/5005.html

    [i]One theme discussed by some of the authors, including Hoffman and Coady, is the contrast between humanitarian intervention understood as mere rescue (a quick in-and-out operation) and humanitarian intervention understood ...[text shortened]... has been a colony already and a foreign presence won't go down smoothly. Quite a dilemma, uh?
    Oh, you mean to interrupt the economic activities
    being tried like this?:



    "In terms of domestic market, Mexico’s population
    is nearly 110 million, and purchasing power is growing.
    Recently attained macroeconomic stability, stronger
    growth, expanding credit, and social programs for the
    poor have contributed to a marked reduction in the percentage
    of Mexicans under the poverty line (from 37%
    in 1996 to 14% in 2006) and the emergence of a more
    robust middle class. The number of families that earn
    between US$600–US$1,600 a month jumped from 5.7
    million in 1996 to 10.7 million a decade later.66
    The most recent demographic trends bode well for
    a further expansion of the domestic market. For the first
    time in decades, the economically active population
    outnumbers the rest of the population (i.e. the sum of
    retired population and children).67 And the trend is expected
    to last another 30 years. If supported by investment
    in human and physical capital, productivity and growth
    prospects could benefit as the domestic market grows.
    The size of Mexico’s foreign market is boosted by its
    extensive network of free trade agreements. Mexico is
    a world leader in signing such pacts. It has inked
    deals that involve 43 countries on three continents —
    translating into a potential market of one billion consumers.
    68 Since the early 1990s, Mexico has concluded
    free trade agreements with countries and regions as
    diverse as Chile (1992), the United States and Canada
    (NAFTA, 1994), Venezuela and Colombia (the G3 Free
    Trade Agreement, 1995), Israel (2000), the European
    Union (2000), and Japan (2005). Mexico is also an
    active member of important regional forums, such as
    the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Association, the
    Latin American Integration Association, and the Free
    Trade Area of the Americas."
  14. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    13 Jul '09 07:36 / 1 edit
    So, anybody, any opinions other than copy-pastes and official propaganda?

    I'll continue, then:

    Caissad4 post is, in my opinion, worth considering. In 2005, Mexico ranked 43 in a 155 list of liberal economies, where Chile tops Latin America. Although the lives of some have improved in Mexico, the gap between those who have and those who don't have has gone ridiculously wide.

    http://en.mercopress.com/2005/01/05/chile-ranks-as-most-liberal-economy-in-the-region

    Moreover, the drug trafficking problem is a symptom of a deteriorated social structure, which is evidencing the shortcomings of the current economic model.

    Of course, the ignorant who see all black and white will understand the above as "oh then are you suggesting to be a communist country". But indeed a socialdemocratic regime which operates with certain honesty could shift the attention from benefits to the elite into working for the people. Education and infrastructure, after all, worked well for Colombia.
  15. 13 Jul '09 07:44
    Originally posted by Seitse
    So, anybody, any opinions other than copy-pastes and official propaganda?

    I'll continue, then:

    Caissad4 post is, in my opinion, worth considering. In 2005, Mexico ranked 43 in a 155 list of liberal economies, where Chile tops Latin America. Although the lives of some have improved in Mexico, the gap between those who have and those who don't have has go ...[text shortened]... o working for the people. Education and infrastructure, after all, worked well for Colombia.
    Oh now you're making sense, you think that Harvard and the World Economic Forum were created by Mexico as "official propaganda."

    So was the gini co-efficient which indicates that inequality in Mexico has actually declined.

    But to the ignorant Seitse's of the world, all that means is duh, huh?