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  1. 29 Nov '12 11:40
    Does anyone find this political cartoon funny?

    The Captive

    http://blog.chron.com/nickanderson/2012/11/the-captive/
  2. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    29 Nov '12 11:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Does anyone find this political cartoon funny?

    The Captive

    http://blog.chron.com/nickanderson/2012/11/the-captive/
    I find it frightening but funny also.

    This Norquist is some kind of mega ego with a power complex.

    The government needs money but the republicans have consistently reduced taxes to the point where they are actively trying to bankrupt the US.

    The taxes are now so low they cannot keep up with inflation much less entitlements and such.

    When even the very rich pay a max of 14% and the rest of us maybe 9 or 10, what the hell did they think was going to happen?

    Take away all the money the government used to get and what do we have now?

    Of COURSE taxes have to rise.

    My guess is it will go up about 10%, so if you formerly paid $1000 you now pay 1100. Big deal.

    The taxes even at that are so low as to be insignificant.

    What is really going on is republicans want to abrogate responsibility and let the corporations that have bought them out to run as they wish, workers' health be damned, environment be damned, climate change be damned.

    That is a recipe for disaster in the long term for short term gains which is about all the further in time republicans can think.

    They spout off about 'we don't want socialized medicine' blah blah blah, which is just a dodge.

    Take a look at some of the other countries tax codes. Try Ireland, like 55% and a lot of countries like that.

    You remember the song "Tax man' from the Beatles, that was a reaction to the UK government upping the tax on the rich to 98%. Think about that. You start a company, employ thousands of people, make a billion dollars and the government lets you keep a few million out of that.

    It used to be almost that bad in the US till the republicans started their pogrom to destroy the US government where now taxes are so low they have nothing left to bribe voters with. They can't lower taxes any more than they already have since the government is about to go broke, facing the 'fiscal cliff', which some people think SHOULD happen.

    They will probably stumble around till the last minute and then have some kind of compromise but in the end taxes will HAVE to go up and hopefully on the very rich as well as the middle class, which has been greatly diminished in the last 30 years mainly as the direct result of republicans caving in to the corporations who bought them out.
  3. 29 Nov '12 12:22
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I find it frightening but funny also.

    This Norquist is some kind of mega ego with a power complex.

    The government needs money but the republicans have consistently reduced taxes to the point where they are actively trying to bankrupt the US.

    The taxes are now so low they cannot keep up with inflation much less entitlements and such.

    When even th ...[text shortened]... as the direct result of republicans caving in to the corporations who bought them out.
    Good reply
  4. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    29 Nov '12 12:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I find it frightening but funny also.

    This Norquist is some kind of mega ego with a power complex.

    The government needs money but the republicans have consistently reduced taxes to the point where they are actively trying to bankrupt the US.

    The taxes are now so low they cannot keep up with inflation much less entitlements and such.

    When even th as the direct result of republicans caving in to the corporations who bought them out.
    "The government needs money". Let's start with that premise. Before we begin, let me bring up a golden oldie for you: http://m.nypost.com/p/news/national/obama_apoplectic_about_gsa_spending_AK1Y3d3SkbS2dCR9lmqPUO

    Have you ever watched a government, at any level, operate close up? I have...I've watched the federal government operate, two state governments, and several county and local governments. Government does not restrain itself. The people who operate government do not make difficult choices. They simply tell themselves that taxes will have to go up. Then they raise them. And people who do not want to pay more taxes until the government can demonstrate it will operate efficiently and without waste - to say nothing of corruption - are vilified by people like you.

    I watched engineers sleep at work, have no performance demanded of them, be coddled, do no work for months on end. This is the Navy command cited by the Secretary of the Navy as the Navy's new operating model. I can only imagine what happens at other agencies. There is no profit motive, there is no threat of getting fired, so there is no sense of urgency or need to perform.

    The Founding Fathers were suspicious of government, and suspicious of the motives of men. That's why they set the government up the way they did. Can you explain to me why you and your ilk love it so much? You talk about government like it's your god.

    By the way - Grover's a very nice man. Nicer than you or I. Not the monster you describe at all.
  5. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    29 Nov '12 12:39
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Good reply
    Of course you think it's a good reply. You agree with it. This nervous self-affirmation thing you people do is just goofy.
  6. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    29 Nov '12 14:01
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Of course you think it's a good reply. You agree with it. This nervous self-affirmation thing you people do is just goofy.
    Good reply.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 Nov '12 14:10
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    Of course you think it's a good reply. You agree with it. This nervous self-affirmation thing you people do is just goofy.
    To be fair, sonhouse's post was hardly a one sided affirmation of liberal tax policy. At the end, he ripped overtaxation also.

    The fact is that GOP mantra has always been lower lower lower taxes. And the mantra has worked. Taxes have gone down. But now they're at the point where they simply can't go down any more. Based just on mandatory spending, taxes are already insufficient to fund the federal budget. You can't always just advocate lowering taxes as a chant. As some point, they've been lowered enough. And though I'm an advocate of the free market as the most efficient mechanism by which generate a strong economy in most cases, I have to conclude that taxes are low enough or even too low. And that's across the board, not just on the rich.
  8. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    29 Nov '12 14:17
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Does anyone find this political cartoon funny?

    The Captive

    http://blog.chron.com/nickanderson/2012/11/the-captive/
    I expect people who are hired to govern to GOVERN. I expect them to hold to their principles, but also make necessary compromises, change their mind sometimes, react to conditions, and find a better way.

    I really don't like voting for someone who has lashed himself to a particular mast and has vowed "NEVER". Especially if he did that to get political support before an election. It is too close to giving in to blackmail. And no, I don't particularly like the blackmailer, either.

    Finall, if he went by "G. Glenn Norquist", he would be a lot easier to take -- let's face it.
  9. Subscriber KingDavid403
    King David
    29 Nov '12 14:38 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Does anyone find this political cartoon funny?

    The Captive

    http://blog.chron.com/nickanderson/2012/11/the-captive/
    Grover is a joke. He's not, nor has he ever been elected to any part of our goverment. But he still rules our tea party wing nuts in congress because their god is money. And Grover is a multi billionaire (Thanks to his daddy) and he represents the hugh corporarations who donate huge amounts of money to the tea party republican wing nuts. And they still want their goverment subsidy checks (WELFARE CHECKS) to keep flowing and to not have to pay hardly any taxes while blaming the poorer and middle classes for our debt problem. The're such hypocrites and jokes to freedom and America. And they LOST. And they will continue to lose. Bye Bye Grover. Your days are very numbered.

    Edit; I don't really find the cartoon funny as it represents the truth in America for some time now. But it's a good piction of Truth.
  10. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    29 Nov '12 16:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    To be fair, sonhouse's post was hardly a one sided affirmation of liberal tax policy. At the end, he ripped overtaxation also.

    The fact is that GOP mantra has always been lower lower lower taxes. And the mantra has worked. Taxes have gone down. But now they're at the point where they simply can't go down any more. Based just on mandatory spending, taxes are taxes are low enough or even too low. And that's across the board, not just on the rich.
    I completely get what you're saying and yes, mandatory spending is out of whack with our tax rates. My complaints are these: that people who've done well are being vilified, that we're being talked about, not to, that the Democrats have presented no plan, coherent or otherwise, on how they would apply tax increases, and they make spending spending commitments when we're already in a hole. There needs to be a balanced approach, and a balanced approach includes new revenues AND entitlement reform. My sense is that liberals/Collectivists just want to have their way on this, and that's nowhere near good enough for me. For God's sake you made a better argument for higher taxes than any liberal here.
  11. 29 Nov '12 16:51
    Originally posted by sh76
    To be fair, sonhouse's post was hardly a one sided affirmation of liberal tax policy. At the end, he ripped overtaxation also.

    The fact is that GOP mantra has always been lower lower lower taxes. And the mantra has worked. Taxes have gone down. But now they're at the point where they simply can't go down any more. Based just on mandatory spending, taxes are ...[text shortened]... taxes are low enough or even too low. And that's across the board, not just on the rich.
    For those who think tax revenues are too little, remember that under Bill Clinton we took in and spent just under $3 trillion, and for most of his 8 years saw deficits of several billion dollars. Due to Republican constraints on his spending, at one point we had a budget surplus of a trillion dollars (remember that's a trillion projected over ten years, so about 200B per year) but there was no extra cash on hand, and that year the national debt increased.

    Anyone republican or democrat who thinks you can continue to operate a government on debt is out of their mind. Republicans who want to maintain a massive military in all parts of the earth, and prepare for wars to be fought a half century from now, can't pay for it with debt. And democrats who want to solve every financial social "need" by taxation and redistribution, will find that debt eventually will kill their well intentioned dreams.

    It may be that we are under taxed, but I can't see it. Nor do I see that taxes are dramatically lower than they were say 20 years ago. They are surely more complicated, and designed to favor certain behaviors and groups, some rich and some poor.

    One thing that is absolutely certain, is that we can't tax our way to prosperity, or to government responsibility. I've not seen any tax proposal that comes close to bringing the budget to anywhere near balance. There aren't enough uberwealthy to close the gap, so the far more numerous middle class and poor will get the bill. Those clamoring for higher taxes thinking that someone else will pay are bound to be disappointed when the burden hits them.

    A far more simple and reliable solution is available. Stop the runaway spending, at least slow it down to the point that perhaps tax increases could make a difference. So Democrats propose going back to Clinton level taxes. How about before doing that return to Clinton level expenditures, that so called balanced budget. And while doing it, ditch the government's policy of building spending increases into current budgets known as baseline budgeting, so that future increases less than the projections end being demagogued as "cuts".

    I am a fan of Grover Norquist, and anyone earning a living in America ought to be. There are multiple Jabbas in the Congress where spending originates and is passed. Norquist is one man fighting the good fight, ultimately for the benefit of every American rich or poor.
  12. 29 Nov '12 22:42
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    I expect people who are hired to govern to GOVERN. I expect them to hold to their principles, but also make necessary compromises, change their mind sometimes, react to conditions, and find a better way.

    I really don't like voting for someone who has lashed himself to a particular mast and has vowed "NEVER". Especially if he did that to get political ...[text shortened]... ll, if he went by "G. Glenn Norquist", he would be a lot easier to take -- let's face it.
    Good answer including the good one at the end.
  13. 29 Nov '12 22:44
    Originally posted by normbenign
    For those who think tax revenues are too little, remember that under Bill Clinton we took in and spent just under $3 trillion, and for most of his 8 years saw deficits of several billion dollars. Due to Republican constraints on his spending, at one point we had a budget surplus of a trillion dollars (remember that's a trillion projected over ten years, s ...[text shortened]... n fighting the good fight, ultimately for the benefit of every American rich or poor.
    Grover Norquist good for debt/deficit reduction?