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Debates Forum

  1. 20 Feb '15 00:55
    http://louderwithcrowder.com/video-jesus-vs-muhammad/

    No comparison here... muhammad was a brutal killer, who enjoyed many young wives.. no surprised here,, Other thoughts from this group of wise old men?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    20 Feb '15 01:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    http://louderwithcrowder.com/video-jesus-vs-muhammad/

    No comparison here... muhammad was a brutal killer, who enjoyed many young wives.. no surprised here,, Other thoughts from this group of wise old men?
    The Midianites, people of Jericho and many other peoples of the ancient Middle East would have a contrary opinion; Jesus as part of the triune God in Christian theology massacred and enslaved millions according to your Holy Book.
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    20 Feb '15 01:57
    Here's a thread from 10 years ago: http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=20100&page=&page=1

    The Midianite Massacre is on page 1 from a post by ATY. There's a great post on page 2 by Darfius defending it:

    ou must understand, when God commanded killing in the OT, it was ALWAYS to protect the Jews. Because the Messiah would come from the Jews! Those boys? They were brought up hating the Jews, and if they had been allowed to become men, would have revolted! Also, children ALL go to heaven, because they haven't yet reached the age of accountability. In other words, they don't understand what it MEANS to sin, so God does not hold them accountable.

    And the women who had lain with the evil men were probably pregnant, and they probably wanted to kill the Jews for killing their husbands. They would have corrupted the children still more.



    Tell me about this "moral superiority" of Christianity over Islam again?
  4. 20 Feb '15 02:07
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The Midianites, people of Jericho and many other peoples of the ancient Middle East would have a contrary opinion; Jesus as part of the triune God in Christian theology massacred and enslaved millions according to your Holy Book.
    The life and teachings of Jesus speak for themselves.

    Matthew 5:43-48New International Version (NIV)

    Love for Enemies

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    So how do you rectify the life of Jesus with the God he purported to serve, or is it just another example of why the Bible does not make any sense in your estimation?
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    20 Feb '15 02:30
    Originally posted by whodey
    The life and teachings of Jesus speak for themselves.

    Matthew 5:43-48New International Version (NIV)

    Love for Enemies

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to ri ...[text shortened]... erve, or is it just another example of why the Bible does not make any sense in your estimation?
    According to your faith's beliefs, Jesus WAS the God he purported to serve.
    As such, you'll have to explain why he ordered all those atrocities in the OT.

    And for the nth time; is it your assertion that the teachings of Jesus require Christians to be nonviolent? If so, I'll look forward to your chastisement of Eladar, Hugh Glass and others calling for you Christians to war against Islamist radicals in the Middle East.
  6. 20 Feb '15 03:21
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    According to your faith's beliefs, Jesus WAS the God he purported to serve.
    As such, you'll have to explain why he ordered all those atrocities in the OT.

    And for the nth time; is it your assertion that the teachings of Jesus require Christians to be nonviolent? If so, I'll look forward to your chastisement of Eladar, Hugh Glass and others calling for you Christians to war against Islamist radicals in the Middle East.
    Why do I have to explain anything?

    Jesus said to love your enemies. Why do you reckon he said to do that?

    Again, this is about Jesus and Mo.
  7. 20 Feb '15 03:39
    The Quran:

    Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

    but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.



    Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.



    Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



    Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah'.



    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



    Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



    Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



    Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).



    Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



    Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



    Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."



    Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



    Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."



    Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



    Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."



    Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.



    Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.



    Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.



    Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.




    Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imi...
  8. 20 Feb '15 03:44 / 1 edit
    Not of This World - John 18:33-36


    Then Pilate went back inside the palace. Pilate called Jesus to him. He asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus said, "Is that your own question, or did other people tell you about me?" Pilate said, "I am not a Jew! It was your own people and their leading priests that brought you before me. What have you done wrong?" Jesus said, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If it belonged to this world, then my servants would fight so that I would not be given to the Jewish leaders. But my kingdom is from another place." (ERV) Full Text
  9. 20 Feb '15 03:49
    Luke 9 New International Version (NIV)


    Samaritan Opposition

    51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[b]?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
  10. 20 Feb '15 03:53
    Jesus Arrested

    47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

    49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

    51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
  11. 20 Feb '15 04:06
    John 8 King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
  12. 20 Feb '15 04:09
    So judging the two men in question, what are we to say in regards to their actions and words?

    Mo may as well be Hitler.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    20 Feb '15 10:33
    Originally posted by whodey
    So judging the two men in question, what are we to say in regards to their actions and words?

    Mo may as well be Hitler.
    Jesus seems a nice guy but he was a Jew, remained a Jew and did not invent Christianity - Paul did. Of course we only know about Jesus what Paul and his supporters wrote down for us to know. There have been plenty of peace loving and humane mystics in the history of Islam. The things set out in the Koran only make sense if you take the trouble to see the context in which each section was written. Words out of context lose their significance and become something different. The Koran is also not a piece of reasoned prose - it is closer to poetry in its form and not susceptible to your style of reading.

    Your selective and ignorant selections from the Koran are equivalent to comparable selections from the bible littering the Spirituality forum. I do not see Christians on that forum silenced into submission by such futile activities. Why would you expect to silence Muslims with your appeal to ignorance?

    Are you going to take up the argument against those advocates of Revelations - Hugh Glass for example, or RJH - and complain at the way fundamentalist Christians are actively advocating violence as a path towards the Apocalypse? In other words, are you radically anti-violence as you seem to claim and opposed to the use of Christian scripture to promote intolerance and hatred? Well then - join the Muslims who are opposed to their own half baked, troglodyte fundamentalists. There are plenty. As things stand, the USA has consistently been promoting violence at the expense of secular and reasonable Muslims while appealing to Christian values. Sickening hypocrisy and ignorance.
  14. 20 Feb '15 11:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Jesus seems a nice guy but he was a Jew, remained a Jew and did not invent Christianity - Paul did. Of course we only know about Jesus what Paul and his supporters wrote down for us to know. There have been plenty of peace loving and humane mystics in the history of Islam. The things set out in the Koran only make sense if you take the trouble to see the c ...[text shortened]... r and reasonable Muslims while appealing to Christian values. Sickening hypocrisy and ignorance.
    This is blatantly false.

    Matthew 16 King James Version (KJV)

    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    It is interesting that Jesus told his disciples not to reveal to anyone that he was the Son of God, yet you claim that Paul invented him?


    Paul did not write the book of Matthew.

    Nevertheless, this thread is not about the veracity of the Bible, this is about how the respective followers view these two individuals. And as I've said, the followers of Jesus and Mo follow the Bible and Quran as is, so let's us the text as is, shall we?

    Now Hitler I'm sure showed love to people in his life to, but when you throw an entire world into war and murder over 6 million Jews, your good side tends to be overlooked. I could care less how much Mo preached love because he preached hate as well.

    As Jesus said, if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even sinners like Hitler do the same.

    Allah does not love Whodey, According to the Quran, I am an enemy of Allah because I don't recognize his messenger Mo as from God, and should be killed as a Kafir.
  15. 20 Feb '15 12:01
    Originally posted by finnegan

    Are you going to take up the argument against those advocates of Revelations - Hugh Glass for example, or RJH - and complain at the way fundamentalist Christians are actively advocating violence as a path towards the Apocalypse? In other words, are you radically anti-violence as you seem to claim and opposed to the use of Christian scripture to promote intol ...[text shortened]... r and reasonable Muslims while appealing to Christian values. Sickening hypocrisy and ignorance.[/b]
    John Chapter 2

    14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

    15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

    As we can see, Jesus was not a pacifist. In fact, he gave his own life in a most violent way, and asked his disciples to follow after him, which they did.

    The question is, where is the fight? For Jesus it was a spiritual fight. As he said, if my kingdom where of this world, my disciples would pick up swords to defend me, but it is not.