Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    02 Apr '15 19:44
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Khalil Amine (who's not stupid) has felt free to speak openly on the record
    with Steve Levine (a white American writer), making some unflattering
    comments about his white American employees. His 'politically incorrect'
    comments seem to have upset some white Americans in this forum.

    My point is that Khalil Amine's *not* attempting to conceal his atti ...[text shortened]... ns. Would they endorse
    alleged unfair discrimination against white Americans in the workplace?
    Yes, "Argonne National Laboratory, located just outside of Chicago and one of the U.S. Department of Energy's largest national laboratories for scientific and engineering research, is managed by UChicago Argonne, LLC, for the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Science."

    http://www.uchicagoargonnellc.org/

    This makes me wonder if Amine is regarded as a member of the academic faculty and is tenured. Tenure would bring with it considerable freedom of speech and opinion. Any actual pattern of illegal practices would of course be a different matter.

    "Academic tenure's original purpose was to guarantee the right to academic freedom: it protects teachers and researchers when they dissent from prevailing opinion, openly disagree with authorities of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenure
  2. Zugzwang
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    02 Apr '15 19:561 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    Yes, "Argonne National Laboratory, located just outside of Chicago and one of the U.S. Department of Energy's largest national laboratories for scientific and engineering research, is managed by UChicago Argonne, LLC, for the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Science."

    http://www.uchicagoargonnellc.org/

    This makes me wonder if Amine is regarded as a ...[text shortened]... ies of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenure
    Here's Khalil Amine's webpage at Argonne National Laboratory:
    http://www.anl.gov/contributors/khalil-amine

    I don't know (no evidence found yet) if Khalil Amine's regarded as a tenured
    member of the faculty at the University of Chicago. But Steve Levine gives
    the impression that Khalil Amine does only research and no teaching apart
    from occasional guest lectures.

    As far as Steve Levine apparently could tell, Khalil Amine was making an
    honest assessment when he said that, on average, his white American
    employees were less productive than his Chinese employees. (How many
    white Americans would get upset at meeting a coach who preferred to
    recruit black rather than white players for his college basketball team?)

    By the way, if many white Americans who know him in person regard Khalil Amine
    as a racist against white people, then I doubt that he could have risen as
    far as he has done at Argonne.
  3. Joined
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    03 Apr '15 18:43
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Here's Khalil Amine's webpage at Argonne National Laboratory:
    http://www.anl.gov/contributors/khalil-amine

    I don't know (no evidence found yet) if Khalil Amine's regarded as a tenured
    member of the faculty at the University of Chicago. But Steve Levine gives
    the impression that Khalil Amine does only research and no teaching apart
    from occasional ...[text shortened]... t against white people, then I doubt that he could have risen as
    far as he has done at Argonne.
    I would respect his right to express himself even without tenure, tenure only provides a possible explanation of his temerity. But if there is evidence of rejecting applicants solely on the basis of their nationality and/or skin color (the latter a somewhat nebulous distinction that we know goes beyond skin color, but is a handy simplification) which stemmed from his conclusion that individual members of these groups can be dismissed as less productive, I would respect the right of the rejected applicants or actual employees (some of whom might suffer from prejudicial performance reviews) to blow the whistle and let the chips fall where they may.
  4. Zugzwang
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    03 Apr '15 19:34
    Originally posted by JS357
    I would respect his right to express himself even without tenure, tenure only provides a possible explanation of his temerity. But if there is evidence of rejecting applicants solely on the basis of their nationality and/or skin color (the latter a somewhat nebulous distinction that we know goes beyond skin color, but is a handy simplification) which stemmed f ...[text shortened]... from prejudicial performance reviews) to blow the whistle and let the chips fall where they may.
    I believe that Khalil Amine himself would support the right of any applicant
    or employee who believes oneself to be the victim of unfair discrimination to
    take appropriate action to oppose it. After all, he himself has done it.

    According to Steve Levine, earlier in his career Khalil Amine accused one of
    his supervisors of unfairly discriminating against himself and Chinese employees.
    In Khalil Amine's view, even though he and these Chinese were among the
    most productive employees, they were being given unfairly low evaluations
    by a bigoted supervisor. In this case, Khalil Amine appealed to an authority
    that outranked his supervisor, and he received a promotion and/or a raise.
    His employer would not concede, however, that the supervisor was bigoted,
    presumably because that could open the door to legal action by some other
    employees (such as the ethnic Chinese).

    For whatever it's worth, here's what a British swimming coach said about
    the Chinese culture of working harder:

    "Chinese athletes at these Olympics train harder than any in the world"
    --British coach with the Chinese Olympic swimming team (2012)

    "Chinese athletes train incredibly hard, harder than I can explain in words,
    and a coach who has placed swimmers on five different Olympic Games teams,
    I have never seen athletes train like this anywhere in the world.
    They have an unrelenting appetite for hard work, can (and will) endure pain
    for longer than their western counterparts, will guarantee to turn up for practice
    every single time and give their all."

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/jul/31/chinese-athletes-olympics-train-harder

    It seems to me that this British swimming coach was observing some of
    the same Chinese cultural characteristics that Khalil Amine observed too.
  5. Joined
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    03 Apr '15 19:53
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I believe that Khalil Amine himself would support the right of any applicant
    or employee who believes oneself to be the victim of unfair discrimination to
    take appropriate action to oppose it. After all, he himself has done it.

    According to Steve Levine, earlier in his career Khalil Amine accused one of
    his supervisors of unfairly discriminating ag ...[text shortened]... was observing some of
    the same Chinese cultural characteristics that Khalil Amine observed too.
    No doubt. Have you heard of this book?

    Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother is a book by Amy Chua published in 2011

    Quote from the Wikipedia article on this book:

    "The Wall Street Journal article generated a huge response, both positive and negative.[4] Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute, for instance, argued that “large numbers of talented children everywhere would profit from Chua’s approach, and instead are frittering away their gifts — they’re nice kids, not brats, but they are also self-indulgent and inclined to make excuses for themselves”.[7] In a poll on the Wall Street Journal website regarding Chua’s response to readers, two-thirds of respondents[clarification needed] said the “Demanding Eastern” parenting model is better than the “Permissive Western” model.[8] Allison Pearson wondered the following in The Daily Telegraph: “Amy Chua’s philosophy of child-rearing may be harsh and not for the fainthearted, but ask yourself this: is it really more cruel than the laissez-faire indifference and babysitting-by-TV which too often passes for parenting these days?”[9]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Hymn_of_the_Tiger_Mother
  6. Zugzwang
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    03 Apr '15 20:24
    Originally posted by JS357
    No doubt. Have you heard of this book?

    Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother is a book by Amy Chua published in 2011

    Quote from the Wikipedia article on this book:

    "The Wall Street Journal article generated a huge response, both positive and negative.[4] Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute, for instance, argued that “large numbers of talente ...[text shortened]... s for parenting these days?”[9]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Hymn_of_the_Tiger_Mother
    I would advise Westerners to take Amy Chua's book with a big 'pinch of salt'.
    I don't think that Amy Chua's as concerned with presenting Chinese child-rearing
    practices in the most accurate way as she is with pandering (a verb that
    may seem too harsh) to the stereotypes of her targeted American audience.
    As far as I know, Chinese people generally don't accept Amy Chua as being
    any particular authority on Chinese child-rearing practices.
  7. Joined
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    03 Apr '15 23:56
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I would advise Westerners to take Amy Chua's book with a big 'pinch of salt'.
    I don't think that Amy Chua's as concerned with presenting Chinese child-rearing
    practices in the most accurate way as she is with pandering (a verb that
    may seem too harsh) to the stereotypes of her targeted American audience.
    As far as I know, Chinese people generally don't accept Amy Chua as being
    any particular authority on Chinese child-rearing practices.
    I recall now, some dissent from the Chinese community even here in the US. However it rings true for me, not necessarily specific to the Chinese but to any community that is seeking to advance themselves relative to others. This can be, for example, in immigrant groups who have, time and again, come to a new land and established themselves, or now, in the globalized world, competing with people in another land without migrating to that land. I suppose that in the big picture, we should welcome success wherever we see it, and emulate it.

    I have not disputed Amine's personal experience of "Chinese" vs "American" productivity in his labs. ("Chinese" and "American" do not juxtapose cleanly as classifications.) What has interested me in this thread is how his opinions play out in the face of Title 7 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I gather it has not caused problems for him or for Argonne.
  8. Zugzwang
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    04 Apr '15 00:32
    Originally posted by JS357
    I recall now, some dissent from the Chinese community even here in the US. However it rings true for me, not necessarily specific to the Chinese but to any community that is seeking to advance themselves relative to others. This can be, for example, in immigrant groups who have, time and again, come to a new land and established themselves, or now, in the glob ...[text shortened]... itle 7 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I gather it has not caused problems for him or for Argonne.
    Most American book reviewers like to assume that Amy Tan's novels must
    present highly realistic accounts of Chinese mother-daughter relationships.
    In contrast, many real Chinese mothers and daughters regard what she
    writes as sometimes quite unrealistic, being tailored to appeal to her
    ignorant target audience of middle-class white American women.
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Apr '15 01:57
    We should keep in mind she is Chinese-American, not native Chinese.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Apr '15 06:58
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    We should keep in mind she is Chinese-American, not native Chinese.
    I'm sure a Chinese (from China) could have written her book in half the time then.
  11. Zugzwang
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    04 Apr '15 19:30
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    We should keep in mind she is Chinese-American, not native Chinese.
    Amy Tan also has been criticized by some Chinese-American women (who tend
    to write for Asian-American publications) for sometimes being quite unrealistic
    in describing relationships between Chinese-American mothers and daughters.
  12. Zugzwang
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    04 Apr '15 19:433 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder to AThousandYoung
    I'm sure a Chinese (from China) could have written her book in half the time then.
    Chen-Ning Yang (aka Yang Zhenning) was one of the first Chinese to win a
    Nobel Prize in science (physics in 1957). American reference books tend to
    list him as exclusively American, denying his Chinese identity, but, in fact,
    Yang was born and grew up in China and, when he won the Nobel Prize,
    he still was a citizen of China. He did not even apply for naturalization as a
    US citizen until several years later. In retirement, he has returned to China.

    For whatever it's worth, Yang has said that as he became more 'Americanized'--
    accustomed to working alongside Americans--he tended (or was tempted)
    not to work quite as hard as he had done earlier. Another factor, of course,
    was that he had become older and more established in his field (after winning
    a Nobel Prize), so he no longer needed to work quite as hard. It's common
    among Chinese immigrants to the USA, however, to observe that their
    'Americanized' children tend not to study or work quite as hard as they did.

    In the International Mathematical Olympiads, teams from China almost always win.
    The US teams (often 2/3 ethnic Chinese) tend to do well too, usually winning
    or contending for medals. So the Chinese from China have performed better
    than the ethnic Chinese (US citizens) representing the USA. Of course, there's
    a much larger 'talent pool' of Chinese students in China than in the USA.

    By the way, at the Olympiads there's generally a feeling of 'We all love solving
    hard problems in mathematics, so our nationalities should not divide us.'
    Some Western students have said that they enjoyed talking with North Koreans,
    though usually only about mathematics, not politics.
  13. Zugzwang
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    04 Apr '15 20:051 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    I would respect his right to express himself even without tenure, tenure only provides a possible explanation of his temerity. But if there is evidence of rejecting applicants solely on the basis of their nationality and/or skin color (the latter a somewhat nebulous distinction that we know goes beyond skin color, but is a handy simplification) which stemmed f ...[text shortened]... from prejudicial performance reviews) to blow the whistle and let the chips fall where they may.
    "...a possible explanation of his (Khalil Amine's) temerity."
    --JS357

    His 'temerity' in saying that white Americans were not his best employees?
    I suspect that Khalil Amine knows that a safer way 'to get ahead' in the USA
    would be to say only very flattering things about white Americans.

    At what point does making and acting upon a generalization become prejudicial?
    Would it be wrong for a major league baseball scout to focus on finding
    prospects in the Dominican Republic rather than in Spain?
    Would it be wrong for an athletics coach to recruit young Jamaicans as
    sprinters and young Kenyans as distance runners instead of vice versa?

    It's possible that an exceptional baseball prospect could grow up in Spain,
    but a professional baseball scout's time would be more efficiently spent by
    looking for multiple exceptional baseball prospects in the Dominican Republic.
  14. Joined
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    04 Apr '15 22:522 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...a possible explanation of his (Khalil Amine's) temerity."
    --JS357

    His 'temerity' in saying that white Americans were not his best employees?
    I suspect that Khalil Amine knows that a safer way 'to get ahead' in the USA
    would be to say only very flattering things about white Americans.

    At what point does making and acting upon a generalization ...[text shortened]... ciently spent by
    looking for multiple exceptional baseball prospects in the Dominican Republic.
    "At what point does making and acting upon a generalization become prejudicial? "

    "Prejudicial" is defined as "harmful to someone or something; detrimental," but the situation we are discussing has other aspects such as, the harmful action is based on applying a generalization to an individual and is otherwise unjustifiable. I am not saying that this has happened in the situation we are discussing.
  15. Stargazing
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    05 Apr '15 10:55
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Ugly people don't make as much as pretty people.

    Fat people don't make as much as skinny people.

    There is institutionalized discrimination all over the place, but only certain special groups get talked about. If you are not in one of the special groups your plight gets ignored.
    Attractive sales people make more money for their employees because they sell more.

    Thin people are fitter than fat people and are less likely to be off sick.
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