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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member PBE6
    Bananarama
    07 Aug '09 17:15
    Taxes are a hot button topic. Everyone depends on them, and no one wants to pay them - not to mention that no matter what form you implement them in, someone gets the short end of the stick. If you had the ability to implement a new tax system from scratch, what form would it take?

    (1) Describe your ideal tax system (exact numbers aren't necessary, although ballpark figures may make your argument more convincing). Remember, if your tax system would be applied differently to different sectors (public, commercial, industrial, etc...), describe the differences.

    (2) Describe the benefits of your tax system. What makes your system so good?

    (3) Describe the detriments of your tax system. What would you have to give up in order to enjoy the benefits described in s.2?
  2. 07 Aug '09 17:21
    The first $20k is tax free. This makes it cheap for companies to hire low-paid workers.

    The next $30k is taxed at 30%. The remainder is taxed at 70%. VAT is 25%. This results in a nice redistrubution of wealth, boosting the standard of living and increasing the productivity of the labour force. Corporate taxes are set at 30%.
  3. 07 Aug '09 17:22
    A modest proposal.

    No taxes at all.

    All government funding is to be done through borrowing. Lenders would be reassured that they will be repaid, because we retain the power to levy taxes if we absolutely have to. Lenders, feeling confident, would be willing to keep lending again and again so it all can keep going on forever and ever.
  4. 07 Aug '09 17:31 / 2 edits
    THE FAIR TAX (HR 25 in the US House and S 296 in the US Senate) is a federal retail sales tax that replaces the entire federal income and Social Security tax systems, including personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security/Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes. The FairTax allows Americans to keep 100 percent of their paychecks (minus any state income taxes), ends corporate taxes and compliance costs hidden in the retail cost of goods and services, and fully funds the federal government while fulfilling the promise of Social Security and Medicare.
    More FairTax benefits:


    No tax on used goods. No tax on business inputs. With the FairTax, if you choose to buy any new good or service, the sales tax is charged just as state sales taxes are computed today. If you choose to buy used goods - used car, used home, used appliances - you do not pay the FairTax. If, as a business owner or farmer, you buy something for strictly business purposes (not for personal consumption), you pay no FairTax. So, in deciding what to buy, you get to choose whether or not you pay the FairTax.
    No federal sales tax up to the poverty level means progressivity like today's tax system. Furthermore, to ensure that no American pays tax on necessities, the FairTax plan provides a prepaid, monthly rebate for every registered household to cover the consumption tax spent on necessities up to the federal poverty level. This, along with several other features, is how the FairTax completely untaxes the poor, lowers the tax burden on most, while making the overall rate progressive. However, the FairTax is progressive based on lifestyle/spending choices, rather than simply punishing those taxpayers who are successful. Do you see how much freer life is with the FairTax instead of the income tax?
    All Americans take home their whole paychecks. Not only do more Americans have jobs, but they also take home 100 percent of their paychecks (except where state income taxes apply). No federal income taxes or payroll taxes are withheld from paychecks, pensions, or Social Security checks. Retail prices no longer hide corporate taxes or their compliance costs, which drive up costs for those who can least afford to pay. Did you know that hidden income taxes and the cost of complying with them currently make up 20 to 30 percent of all retail prices? It's true. According to Dr. Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University, hidden income taxes are passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices - from 20 to 30 percent higher than they would otherwise be - for everything you buy.
    Tax criminals - don't make criminals out of honest taxpayers. Today, the IRS admits to 25 percent non-compliance with the code. However, this does not take into account the criminal/drug/porn economy, which conservative estimates put at one trillion dollars of untaxed activity. The FairTax taxes those engaged in the underground economy capturing their income at the cash register. The substantial decrease in points of compliance - from every wage earner, investor, and retiree, down to only retailers - also allows enforcement to concentrate on following the money to criminal activity, rather than making potential criminals out of every taxpayer struggling to decipher the code.
    The income tax exports our jobs, rather than our products. The FairTax brings jobs home. Most importantly, U.S. exports are not burdened by the FairTax, as they are with the current income tax. So the FairTax allows U.S. exports to sell overseas for prices 22 percent lower, on average, than they do now, with similar profit margins. Lower prices sharply increase demand for U.S. exports, thereby increasing job creation in U.S. manufacturing sectors. At home, foreign imports are subject to the same FairTax rate as domestically produced goods. Not only does the FairTax put U.S. products sold here on the same tax footing as foreign imports, but the dramatic lowering of compliance costs in comparison to other countries' value-added taxes also gives U.S. products a definitive pricing advantage which foreign tax systems cannot match.
    YOU are in charge! The FairTax moves us from a system that taxes what we earn to a system that taxes what we spend. Under the FairTax, you control your tax liability, not the government. The FairTax puts "we the people" in charge of our money, and puts us all on the path to economic freedom!
    To enact the FairTax and unleash the full economic potential of the U.S., we must apply Vocal and Persistent pressure on Congress each week. http://www.hermancain.com/economicfreedom-npi-fairtax.asp
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    07 Aug '09 17:41
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    A modest proposal.

    No taxes at all.

    All government funding is to be done through borrowing. Lenders would be reassured that they will be repaid, because we retain the power to levy taxes if we absolutely have to. Lenders, feeling confident, would be willing to keep lending again and again so it all can keep going on forever and ever.
    That's what we DO.

    He asked what we should do.


  6. 07 Aug '09 17:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    THE FAIR TAX (HR 25 in the US House and S 296 in the US Senate) is a federal retail sales tax that replaces the entire federal income and Social Security tax systems, including personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security/Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes. The FairTax allows Americans to keep 100 percent of pressure on Congress each week. http://www.hermancain.com/economicfreedom-npi-fairtax.asp
    Top Ten FairTax Advantages

    NO TAX ON THE "POOR"
    NO AUTOMATIC WITHHOLDING
    NO TAX RETURNS (THINK OF THE TREES WE’LL SAVE!)
    NO TAX LOBBYISTS (4 FOR EVERY SENATOR & CONGRESSMAN)
    NO COMPLEXITY COSTS (APPROXIMATELY $250 BILLION EACH YEAR)
    NO WASTED TIME FILING TAX RETURNS (APPROXIMATELY 5.4 BILLION HOURS EACH YEAR)
    NO NOSEY “BIG BROTHER” INTO OUR FINANCIAL AFFAIRS
    NO EMBEDDED TAXES IN U.S. GOODS AND SERVICES
    NO "SNEAK-A-TAXES"
    NO IRS
    ABCs of The FairTax
    ALL federal income taxes and federal payroll taxes will be replaced with The FairTax, also called a consumption tax or a national retail sales tax.

    Brackets of taxation are eliminated. There is just one rate for everyone.

    Capital gains taxes are eliminated. More investment means more jobs.

    Death Taxes are eliminated, and keeping track of deductions is over.

    Everyone is taxed at the same rate of 23% on new goods and services.

    Foreign visitors will pay sales taxes (about $60 billion/year).

    Groceries and basic necessities are not taxed using the “pre-bate”.

    Hidden taxes hurt the poor more than the non-poor.

    IRS is eliminated and replaced with a Sales Tax Administration.

    Job creation in the USA would take off, because embedded taxes and taxes on corporate profits would be eliminated.

    Keeping the collection of taxes simple saves taxpayers billions of dollars annually, which is estimated to be about $250 billion or more.

    Liberals hate the idea because it gives people control of their money instead of government. Lobbyists will hate it also.

    More money for workers and businesses by eliminating compliance costs.

    No more income tax returns!

    Oppressive demands by the IRS would be eliminated!

    Pre-bate of expected sales taxes on basic necessities is based on family size and paid monthly to each family.

    Quick passage by Congress is not likely without a massive demand by the voters.

    Repeal of the 16th Amendment would be in a companion bill.

    Spend more on stuff, you pay more in taxes.

    Two-thirds vote by the Senate would be required to change the 23% rate.

    “Underground economy” would pay taxes (billions!) like everybody else.

    Visibility of the federal taxes we pay would be crystal clear.

    Workers would control their lives and their “pursuit of happiness”.

    XL (extra large) economic growth would be unstoppable!

    You decide how much you pay in taxes when you spend, not the government.

    Zero rate of taxation on education expenses and Zell Miller would love it!
  7. 07 Aug '09 17:54
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Top Ten FairTax Advantages

    NO TAX ON THE "POOR"
    NO AUTOMATIC WITHHOLDING
    NO TAX RETURNS (THINK OF THE TREES WE’LL SAVE!)
    NO TAX LOBBYISTS (4 FOR EVERY SENATOR & CONGRESSMAN)
    NO COMPLEXITY COSTS (APPROXIMATELY $250 BILLION EACH YEAR)
    NO WASTED TIME FILING TAX RETURNS (APPROXIMATELY 5.4 BILLION HOURS EACH YEAR)
    NO NOSEY “BIG BROTHER” INTO OUR F ...[text shortened]... he government.

    Zero rate of taxation on education expenses and Zell Miller would love it!
    But the sales tax would have to be pretty bloody high (more than 50% ), which would drive evasion of this tax.
  8. 07 Aug '09 18:03
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    THE FAIR TAX (HR 25 in the US House and S 296 in the US Senate) is a federal retail sales tax that replaces the entire federal income and Social Security tax systems, including personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security/Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes. The FairTax allows Americans to keep 100 percent of ...[text shortened]... pressure on Congress each week. http://www.hermancain.com/economicfreedom-npi-fairtax.asp
    I like the overall idea of a Federal sales tax -- it would inherently encourage people to save (since no taxes are paid until you spend your money). People wouldn't be able to use tax shelters and other dodges to avoid paying any taxes. Criminals would pay taxes.

    Some problems with your plan that I could see emerging though.

    There'd be no tax charged on any "used goods". How would you be able to distinguish between a new good and a used good? One scheme would be to "sell" all of your new goods to a business partner overseas (somewhere that doesn't have a sales tax). These goods would now be "used". The business partner then sells these used goods back to you and you could sell them to the public tax-free.

    There'd be no tax on something you buy for strictly business purposes. How would the seller know what the purpose of the sale was? Or would everyone have to file an annual statement listing everything that they bought and then pay a tax on it themselves?

    If you limited sales to certified "businesses", those businesses could buy a bunch of stuff for so-called business reasons, but then sell them to their employees for personal use. Actually, anything the business bought could then be resold tax-free because all of these items could be called "used".
  9. 07 Aug '09 18:12
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    I like the overall idea of a Federal sales tax -- it would inherently encourage people to save (since no taxes are paid until you spend your money). People wouldn't be able to use tax shelters and other dodges to avoid paying any taxes. Criminals would pay taxes.

    Some problems with your plan that I could see emerging though.

    There'd be no tax charg ...[text shortened]... t could then be resold tax-free because all of these items could be called "used".
    Those are some good points,I am not sure at the moment how to get around the possible corruption you speak of. Surely something could be tweeked in the plan. Let me look into those points a little deeper and get back to you
  10. 07 Aug '09 18:14
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    But the sales tax would have to be pretty bloody high (more than 50% ), which would drive evasion of this tax.
    I agree -- the tax rate would probably have to be quite high.

    unless there are specific cuts in spending, the tax would have to be revenue neutral -- so the total amount of taxes paid would be the same as under the old plan. There would be people who would pay less than they do now, and there'd be others who would pay more. The latter group would be sure to complain.

    and I agree -- whatever tax system is proposed, there will be schemes to evade it. Some sort of "Big Brother" will have to be making sure everyone pays the taxes they owe.
  11. 07 Aug '09 18:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    I agree -- the tax rate would probably have to be quite high.

    unless there are specific cuts in spending, the tax would have to be revenue neutral -- so the total amount of taxes paid would be the same as under the old plan. There would be people who would pay less than they do now, and there'd be others who would pay more. The latter group would be su ...[text shortened]... it. Some sort of "Big Brother" will have to be making sure everyone pays the taxes they owe.
    according to the plan it is 23% on new goods and services.
    As far as the used goods angle of possible corruption you speak of,I think something would have to be clearly "used" in order to qualify as "used"
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    07 Aug '09 22:02
    Originally posted by PBE6
    Taxes are a hot button topic. Everyone depends on them, and no one wants to pay them - not to mention that no matter what form you implement them in, someone gets the short end of the stick. If you had the ability to implement a new tax system from scratch, what form would it take?

    (1) Describe your ideal tax system (exact numbers aren't necessary, althoug ...[text shortened]... ur tax system. What would you have to give up in order to enjoy the benefits described in s.2?
    Heavy estate tax, light, progressive taxes on income, luxury taxes, taxes on things that are unhealthy like cigarettes to pay for medical bills later on...
  13. 07 Aug '09 23:43
    flat tax 15 pct.

    minimum $10K per year.

    minimum to be paid in dollars or service hours.
  14. 07 Aug '09 23:53
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    flat tax 15 pct.

    minimum $10K per year.

    minimum to be paid in dollars or service hours.
    You're saying the minimum everyone would have to pay is $10K, or anyone making $10K or less doesn't pay taxes?
  15. 08 Aug '09 00:19 / 1 edit
    I'm inclined to think some sort of negative income tax would be best, simpler than the current progressive tax system, with its tax bands, and it would also be redistributive.

    edited to be clearer.