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  1. 11 Feb '18 23:27
    Thousands of desperate Venezuelans are trying to enter Colombia in a bid to escape the hunger and soaring crime rate caused by the spiralling economic crisis.

    Incredible pictures show the mass exodus of refugees crossing the Simon Bolivar international bridge trying to flee the political crisis threatening to engulf Venezuela.

    Colombia - along with its neighbour Brazil - has sent extra soldiers to patrol their porous border with the country after officially taking in more than half a million migrants over the last six months of 2017.

    The country is also tightening its border controls in a bid to stem the flow.

    The dire economic conditions have led to lawlessness in parts of Venezuela's capital Caracas, with truck drivers subjected to 'Mad Max' violence as looters target heavy goods vehicles carrying food.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5374501/Mass-exodus-thousands-Venezuelans-flee-country.html

    So, I guess back to the drawing board, revolutionaries.

    What went wrong and how can we let a thousand flowers bloom?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    12 Feb '18 00:42
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    [quote]Thousands of desperate Venezuelans are trying to enter Colombia in a bid to escape the hunger and soaring crime rate caused by the spiralling economic crisis.

    Incredible pictures show the mass exodus of refugees crossing the Simon Bolivar international bridge trying to flee the political crisis threatening to engulf Venezuela.

    Colombia - alo ...[text shortened]... drawing board, revolutionaries.

    What went wrong and how can we let a thousand flowers bloom?
    Do you have any idea what the country was like before Chavez?
  3. 12 Feb '18 01:03
    So the 1990s weren't good.

    How would you describe the last couple of years and the current situation?

    And if the 1990s were the result of Capitalism, why isn't 2018 the result of Socialism?

    Did the 1990s have as much crime? For instance, the average yearly kidnappings in teh 1990s were in the 50s. Now they are in the 1,000s. The murder rate is through the roof.

    But please, give us some comparisons and some of your opinions on this. I certainly don't know everything about it.

    My Colombian mate's father pointed out that in the 1970s the Colombians lived in such terrible times that Colombians would go over to Venezuela to buy things and be immigrants; now it is the total reverse, and not because Colombia has improved any.
  4. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Feb '18 05:32
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    [quote]Thousands of desperate Venezuelans are trying to enter Colombia in a bid to escape the hunger and soaring crime rate caused by the spiralling economic crisis.

    Incredible pictures show the mass exodus of refugees crossing the Simon Bolivar international bridge trying to flee the political crisis threatening to engulf Venezuela.

    Colombia - alo ...[text shortened]... drawing board, revolutionaries.

    What went wrong and how can we let a thousand flowers bloom?
    I guess I’m not going to be able to explain the complexity of global markets, US interference, attempted socialist principles (without an actual producing workforce based on capitalism to build from), indoctrinated beliefs, lack of understanding the mechanisms of power and a lack of proper checks and balances in a single 5 minute post.

    But to simplify the dynamics:
    The people in Venezuela (a majority of them) were so pleased that money was being spent to make their lives slightly better for once, they failed to continue through with reforming the power structure; removing decision making from the executive branch, to the de-centralised branch.
  5. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Feb '18 05:42
    Here, if you are interested (really interested and not just trolling) is the socialist perspective (and real socialist... not the Obama or Blair kind... in case you are wondering) on Venezuela.

    https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/45094/Venezuela%2C+struggle+and+the+left
  6. 12 Feb '18 06:02
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Here, if you are interested (really interested and not just trolling) is the socialist perspective (and real socialist... not the Obama or Blair kind... in case you are wondering) on Venezuela.

    https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/45094/Venezuela%2C+struggle+and+the+left
    Honestly, thanks. I am not just trolling.

    Perhaps I will read this on my commute home and come up with a response to its contents, positive or negative.
  7. 12 Feb '18 07:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    [quote]Thousands of desperate Venezuelans are trying to enter Colombia in a bid to escape the hunger and soaring crime rate caused by the spiralling economic crisis.

    Incredible pictures show the mass exodus of refugees crossing the Simon Bolivar international bridge trying to flee the political crisis threatening to engulf Venezuela.

    Colombia - alo ...[text shortened]... drawing board, revolutionaries.

    What went wrong and how can we let a thousand flowers bloom?
    Meanwhile, all scandinavian countries absolutely refuse to fail. Canada. France. Uk.


    But by all means, keep bringing Venezuela up as to why socialism "doesn't work". It's super relevant
  8. 12 Feb '18 07:52
    The Legacy of Democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo...
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    12 Feb '18 08:15
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    So the 1990s weren't good.

    How would you describe the last couple of years and the current situation?

    And if the 1990s were the result of Capitalism, why isn't 2018 the result of Socialism?

    Did the 1990s have as much crime? For instance, the average yearly kidnappings in teh 1990s were in the 50s. Now they are in the 1,000s. The murder rate i ...[text shortened]... nd be immigrants; now it is the total reverse, and not because Colombia has improved any.
    In 1999, 50% of the population was below the poverty line, unemployment was at 14.5%, and growth per capita had been negative over the prior 14 years.https://www.globalresearch.ca/venezuela-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez/5326013

    Venezuela is not a "socialist" country; it is a mixed economy:

    Second, while Venezuela has moved away from free-market capitalism, its economy is hardly socialist. The private sector, not the state (and still less the social economy), controls the overwhelming majority of economic activity. Between 1999 and 2011{the years Chavez was President}, the private sector’s share of economic activity increased, from 65 percent to 71 percent.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/

    The Nation article is a balanced one; Maduro (and to some extent, Chavez) made some policy errors, but Venezuela's problem are magnified by the "economic war" being waged against it by its own economic elites and foreign nations esp. the United States.
  10. 12 Feb '18 11:05
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    Meanwhile, all scandinavian countries absolutely refuse to fail. Canada. France. Uk.


    But by all means, keep bringing Venezuela up as to why socialism "doesn't work". It's super relevant
    They'd probably be much better understood as mixed economies and not as Socialist ones.

    Check out this line:

    "The Nordic model refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
  11. 12 Feb '18 11:06
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    The Legacy of Democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo...
    Actually, if you look at my other Original Post in the debates section (called something like Values, Rights, etc..) you will see that I probably agree with you more than you think. No one would ever accuse me of being a stooge for Muh Constitution, Muh Democracy.
  12. 12 Feb '18 11:15 / 1 edit
    (1) Yeah, Venezuela was a bad place to live in the year 1990. Not going to argue that. However, today it is a very special kind of bad place to live that features super high murder rates and convoys of trucks being waylaid for food supplies as half a million people FLEE Venezuela to just go live in another very poor country, Colombia.

    Ergo, extremely impoverished countries that don't do Socialism, e.g., Colombia, are better to live in than impoverished countries that do do Socialsim, e.g., Venezuela.

    (2) They were redistributing land in 2009.
    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106620230

    They now have forced farm labor because things are too bad (2016). Of course, this has something to do with 700% inflation & 10% GDP shrinkage. That's right, one tenth of the whole gross domestic product shrinks.
    http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/29/news/economy/venezuela-decree-farm-labor/index.html

    (3) So they had prosperity back in the mid to late 2000s with an economy tied to oil; the whole country could behave like a silly welfare state, rich and rolling in it, spending here & there, and then once the oil price goes down it's an empire of dirt, literally.

    That's the system you want for your people?

    Total dependency on a single export with no real growth anywhere else? Of course not, but that's what you get with socialism.

    (4) BTW... You know Chavez was a liar and restructuring the society to be as undemocratic as possible, right? He literally also had a Messiah complex.

    Do you want to think about that a bit more, or are you still with the liberal celebrities of the world that pretend this guy was brilliant?
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    12 Feb '18 11:36
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    (1) Yeah, Venezuela was a bad place to live in the year 1990. Not going to argue that. However, today it is a very special kind of bad place to live that features super high murder rates and convoys of trucks being waylaid for food supplies as half a million people FLEE Venezuela to just go live in another very poor country, Colombia.

    Ergo, extremely ...[text shortened]... or are you still with the liberal celebrities of the world that pretend this guy was brilliant?
    I'm sure you'd prefer a State where more than half the People are permanently affixed below the poverty line. The spending on social welfare that Chavez made was long overdue and did not contribute to the present crisis.

    Chavez was soooooooooooooooooooooo undemocratic that he and his party won 13 elections and lost only one. You've been told repeatedly by the press and the right wing blogosphere that he was a "dictator" and you have accepted that rot hook, line and sinker.

    Venezuela was dependent on oil before Chavez got there; the difference was that then all the profits from it went to the oligarchy rather than the People. Chavez made mistakes (like not modernizing the oil industry and not letting the currency float) but your propaganda rant hardly is a balanced view.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    12 Feb '18 11:37
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    They'd probably be much better understood as mixed economies and not as Socialist ones.

    Check out this line:

    "The Nordic model refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    Venezuela is just as much of a "mixed economy" as any of those countries.
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    12 Feb '18 11:58 / 1 edit
    The situation is not helped by the US consistent policy for 15 years to force "regime change" in Venezuela, preferably by a coup or a violent revolution (since the ruling party annoyingly keeps winning elections): http://cepr.net/publications/op-eds-columns/trump-doubles-down-on-sanctions-and-regime-change-for-venezuela