@no1marauder saidYes that’ll work they could hold referendums in areas that the Russians have ethnically cleansed of pro Kyiv Ukrainians by murder, torture , rape and bombardment 🙄
That's something you invented, not my "plan". Ukraine wouldn't have to cede anything that the People of the area didn't want "ceded". It also would merely have to restore its constitutional guarantees of not joining any military alliances but this time with solid security guarantees including a peace keeping force if necessary.
I never proposed NATO "abandoning front ...[text shortened]... oal. You and the other warmongers are willing to destroy the Ukraine in order to save it apparently.
The letter sent to Washington by the Kremlin doesn’t demand that nato retreats to its pre 90s position then, I can see why your a fan of Putins your both very slippery and dishonest.
Your the warmonger No1 you just don’t give a hoot because you think the fall out from this war might damage your party at the midterms and beyond.
The ONLY way to stop this war and preevent the next one is to confront, confound and convince the actual warmonger that he loses more than he gains by waging war.
You are Putins war pig No1 that is as clear as day, nothing you say on this subject makes any moral or practical sense.
Defend Ukraine and Defeat the emperor in the Kremlin that’s the only way this ends in a lasting peace for Russia, Ukraine and the wider world. You cannot make an emperor content, they are insatiable by nature and definition.
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@metal-brain saidEr lying Russian scumbag much.
Russia will take the rest of Donbas, then maybe they will talk.
Ukraine is losing. The only reason Russia is taking longer to take all of Donbas is because they are letting civilians leave to escape harm. Russia is giving them time to do that to minimize civilian deaths. After all, most of the people in Donbas are ethnic Russians who speak Russian.
The reason they are taking so long is because the Ukrainian army kicked there ass in the initial assault and now they are trying to carve out a long term defensive line in the Donbas because the reality of their abilities has finally shattered their delusional expectations.
You say “letting civilians leave” I say “ethnic cleaning”. It’s a good thing for the Russians that you do not have a reputation for being a bare faced liar.
Perhaps you should leave this to No1, at least he has some credibility to squander.
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@kevcvs57 saidWhy the continual lies and childish name calling? Probably because you know your "continue the war indefinitely at any cost" policy is not rationally defensible in a reasoned debate.
Yes that’ll work they could hold referendums in areas that the Russians have ethnically cleansed of pro Kyiv Ukrainians by murder, torture , rape and bombardment 🙄
The letter sent to Washington by the Kremlin doesn’t demand that nato retreats to its pre 90s position then, I can see why your a fan of Putins your both very slippery and dishonest.
Your the warmonger No1 you j ...[text shortened]... d the wider world. You cannot make an emperor content, they are insatiable by nature and definition.
Russia is not going to be militarily defeated by the Ukraine and the costs of this war are too high for those nations and the world to bear. A mutually agreeable peace deal is the only logical and humane way forward. I understand your and others hyper-emotional desire to "punish" the perpetrators of this unjust war and perhaps that could be done at some point in the future, but the most important thing now is that the war end before the Ukraine is a total basket case with tens of thousands of dead, millions as refugees and its cities and economy in complete ruin.
@kevcvs57 saidYou are deluded if you think the Ukraine is winning the war militarily.
Er lying Russian scumbag much.
The reason they are taking so long is because the Ukrainian army kicked there ass in the initial assault and now they are trying to carve out a long term defensive line in the Donbas because the reality of their abilities has finally shattered their delusional expectations.
You say “letting civilians leave” I say “ethnic cleaning”. It’s a goo ...[text shortened]... are faced liar.
Perhaps you should leave this to No1, at least he has some credibility to squander.
@metal-brain saidExcept Russia is not after territory.
"Russia keeps gobbling up territory"
That means Russia is winning.
@athousandyoung saidThey didn't have to. The U.S.'s goal wasn't to annex land.
The Taliban didn't have to fight to the last Afghan.
@vivify saidI’m not talking about the US I am talking about the Soviets and the Russians aren’t after land. In both cases they tried to impose by force puppet regimes that would act as a friendly buffer against NATO.
They didn't have to. The U.S.'s goal wasn't to annex land.
@athousandyoung said
I’m not talking about the US I am talking about the Soviets and the Russians aren’t after land. In both cases they tried to impose by force puppet regimes that would act as a friendly buffer against NATO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War
Soviet troops occupied the cities and main arteries of communication, while the Mujahideen waged guerrilla war in small groups operating in the almost 80 percent of the country that was outside government and Soviet control, almost exclusively[75] being the rugged, mountainous terrain of the countryside.[76][77] The Soviets used their air power to deal harshly with both rebels and civilians, levelling villages to deny safe haven to the Mujahideen, destroying vital irrigation ditches, and laying millions of land mines.
The international community imposed numerous sanctions and embargoes against the Soviet Union…
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@no1marauder saidNo lies no emotions just common sense facts. No one is claiming that Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily and they never have that’s just more of you and mbs misrepresentation of what other posters are saying.
Why the continual lies and childish name calling? Probably because you know your "continue the war indefinitely at any cost" policy is not rationally defensible in a reasoned debate.
Russia is not going to be militarily defeated by the Ukraine and the costs of this war are too high for those nations and the world to bear. A mutually agreeable peace deal is the only lo ...[text shortened]... se with tens of thousands of dead, millions as refugees and its cities and economy in complete ruin.
What Ukraine has done is win its war of survival, Putin thought he was going to roll his column of tanks right into Kyiv, instead he has retreated to the Donbas an area he’s occupied since 2014. Ukraine does not have to defeat Russia it simply has to not be defeated by Russia and that is looking very unlikely now.
If telling yourself that everyone who disagrees with your analysis is being childish and emotional allows you to maintain your superiority delusion then fine but you are 100% wrong about the best way to bring about and maintain peace in Ukraine and the wider region.
The best way to condemn the region to constant Russian aggression is by rewarding Russian aggression, which seems to be your plan in a nutshell.
@no1marauder saidLol it’s pushed the Russians back to the Donbas from the outskirts of Kyiv and Kharkiv. There is no such thing as outright victory in this war but simply stopping the Russian army from over running the whole country is definitely a victory of sorts. The only thing on offer for Putin is the slender hope of a long drawn out pyrrhic stalemate.
You are deluded if you think the Ukraine is winning the war militarily.
@no1marauder
And you are deluded if you think Putin would keep to any agreement. You underestimate his barbarity which he has taught his military to be also.
@kevcvs57 saidYou really don't know what you are talking about. Russian forces aren't "retreating to the Donbass" and they haven't controlled that region since 2014. Instead, they are steadily advancing in that area; 40% of the Lukhansk oblast was in separatist hands when the war started- now 95% of it is with the Ukranians about to suffer a major military defeat which will cede the remaining 5%, lose the region's two biggest cities and result in thousands of captured Ukranian troops.
No lies no emotions just common sense facts. No one is claiming that Ukraine can defeat Russia militarily and they never have that’s just more of you and mbs misrepresentation of what other posters are saying.
What Ukraine has done is win its war of survival, Putin thought he was going to roll his column of tanks right into Kyiv, instead he has retreated to the Donbas an ar ...[text shortened]... nt Russian aggression is by rewarding Russian aggression, which seems to be your plan in a nutshell.
Sure, Russia overreached in the early stages of the war, but it has learned and is concentrating its superior forces in the most strategic location and landing heavy blows. The situation is eerily reminiscent of the Winter War with Finland in 1939-40; I suggest you find a history book and check out how that story ends.
The bottom line is that your policy prescriptions would be disastrous to the Ukraine and its People.
@athousandyoung saidWell sure, the primary goal was to topple the Ukraine's government and impose a puppet, pro-Russian one. But seems clear that failing in that, Russia would be satisfied with either incorporating into itself or establishing as satellite independent States the primarily Russian ethnic parts of the Ukraine. That would leave a much weakened Ukraine.
Except Russia is not after territory.
Militarily, it is already reasonably close to that goal and is slowly getting closer every day.
@no1marauder
You are seriously deluded if you believe Putin will stop halfway into Ukraine OR abide by ANY negotiated deal.
Do you seriously think Putin is civilized?
@sonhouse saidhttps://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-fires-human-rights-chief-perpetuating-russian-troop-systematic-rape-stories
@no1marauder
You are seriously deluded if you believe Putin will stop halfway into Ukraine OR abide by ANY negotiated deal.
Do you seriously think Putin is civilized?