@kevcvs57 saidJust to be clear, you hold these two ideas firmly in your head:
No to neutrality, Ukraine is not Putin's pawn in any way, Russia accepts its limitations or it gets sanctioned and militarily confronted forever.
Ukraine will decide on its foreign policy not me, not you and not Putin!
1. That the Ukraine has no chance of entering NATO in the near or intermediate future and that any claim that Russia fears it becoming a member are completely false AND
2. That it would be better to continue a war which is tearing the Ukraine apart than to ever concede that the country won't join NATO.
@no1marauder saidWhat is it you do not understand about sovereignty Ukraine has the sovereign right to apply for nato membership, any one of thirty nato members have the sovereign right to veto that application.
Just to be clear, you hold these two ideas firmly in your head:
1. That the Ukraine has no chance of entering NATO in the near or intermediate future and that any claim that Russia fears it becoming a member are completely false AND
2. That it would be better to continue a war which is tearing the Ukraine apart than to ever concede that the country won't join NATO.
Russia has no right to determine another nations foreign policy likewise their defence or trading arrangements.
You seem determined to reward Putin for the atrocity of his invasion of Ukraine.
He gets officially recognised ownership of the Crimea and Donbas, he gets to have a veto on Ukraines sovereignty and of course anytime he feels his domestic popularity is dropping or he fancies a macho strut around the international stage he can make deeper incursions into a defenceless neighbour.
Unlike you I am not a patriarch, Ukraine will decide when it has had enough and until then I hope the west and the wider world will support that fight financially, diplomatically and with military equipment.
The sanctions are a long term strategic tool for reducing Putin’s ability to wage his asymmetric war on the democracies that exist on his borders and beyond.
I’ve got a question for you because you seem at one and the same time believe Russia is not a threat to western democracies whilst constantly claiming that they interfered in the 2016 POTUS election. Which is it No1 peaceful victim of western neoconservatives or actively trying to destroy democracy as you would expect from a country in the grip of an ex KGB cabal?
@no1marauder saidStop being disingenuous, a sovereign nation can alter its founding document as it sees fit, I’d have thought a constitutionally minded American would understand at least that much, especially a founding declaration made under duress with pressure from the east and west. A document signed under duress is invalid, surely as a lawyer you’d agree with that concept?
Are you kidding? That was basically their declaration of independence.
The Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine, which was approved by referendum, specifically states that it is:
"Implementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_Ukraine
@kevcvs57 saidSo you would consider any peace treaty after a war which one side was losing "invalid"?
Stop being disingenuous, a sovereign nation can alter its founding document as it sees fit, I’d have thought a constitutionally minded American would understand at least that much, especially a founding declaration made under duress with pressure from the east and west. A document signed under duress is invalid, surely as a lawyer you’d agree with that concept?
@kevcvs57 saidIt's tiresome having to deal with your lies in every single post.
What is it you do not understand about sovereignty Ukraine has the sovereign right to apply for nato membership, any one of thirty nato members have the sovereign right to veto that application.
Russia has no right to determine another nations foreign policy likewise their defence or trading arrangements.
You seem determined to reward Putin for the atrocity of his invasio ...[text shortened]... ively trying to destroy democracy as you would expect from a country in the grip of an ex KGB cabal?
I've made rather clear, as you well know, that a negotiated settlement should have security guarantees for both parties.
Russia is, like most countries do, acting in its own self-interest. "Democracy" has little to do with it and the idea that this war is some titanic struggle between "democracy" and something else, is neocon propaganda BS.
The fact of the matter is that an end to this war would be good for Ukrainians, Russians and the rest of the world (which is suffering economic dislocations which may soon include increases in starvation). Your insistence on an indefinitely prolonged, hopeless war rather than any realistic bargain between the two sides and Russia and the West is borderline psychotic.
@no1marauder
Why are you ok with Russia invading a sovereign country? And what makes you think they will stop at Ukraine? If it was YOUR country being invaded you might have a different take on that.
Ok, I see you said it was unjustified but caving in to Russia and ceding half the territory for 'peace' seems to me like a dream if you think Putin would be satisfied with that. You seem to not realize Putin wants the old Soviet union back and he will not stop till he is STOPPED by force. What about THAT?
@sonhouse saidYou're an embarrassing raving nut.
@no1marauder
Why are you ok with Russia invading a sovereign country? And what makes you think they will stop at Ukraine? If it was YOUR country being invaded you might have a different take on that.
Let the grownups talk.
@no1marauder
So tell me why you think Putin will stop at just killing all Ukrainians? You seem to live in some kind of fantasy world where despots like Putin can be predicted and live with 'agreements'.
@no1marauder saidAnd you cannot pretend that the reality is any different, but just to clarify Russia and Ukraine were not at war with Russia they were the subject of a very sensitive issue between nato and the newly formed Russian federation and resulting in a deal that suited the interests of those two actors rather than Ukraine’s.
So you would consider any peace treaty after a war which one side was losing "invalid"?
This is why I know your a reactionary patriarch you sincerely think that Ukraine should be tied to that externally imposed treaty forever.
@sonhouse saidNATO
@no1marauder
So tell me why you think Putin will stop at just killing all Ukrainians? You seem to live in some kind of fantasy world where despots like Putin can be predicted and live with 'agreements'.
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@no1marauder saidEven you can't be naive enough to believe a security guarantee made by Putin is any more solid than a fart in a colander.
I've made rather clear, as you well know, that a negotiated settlement should have security guarantees for both parties.
@shallow-blue saidObviously there would have to be some tangible precautions; perhaps a demilitarized zone policed by a peacekeeping force drawn from neutral countries.
Even you can't be naive enough to believe a security guarantee made by Putin is any more solid than a fart in a colander.
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@no1marauder saidEven you can't be naive enough to believe Putin will accept such a thing.
Obviously there would have to be some tangible precautions; perhaps a demilitarized zone policed by a peacekeeping force drawn from neutral countries.
@shallow-blue saidLet's see.
Even you can't be naive enough to believe Putin will accept such a thing.
I realize it is now the neocon mantra that Putin is unspeakably evil and bent on world conquest, but I mostly see his external policy as being consistent with hundreds of years of Russian leadership. A deal is possible IMO and its parameters were sketched out in March before the Ukraine walked away from the table.