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  1. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 15:03
    Here's an interesting thought problem. Between fostering annihilation and encouraging contribution toward man's plight, which is preferred?

    There exists an enmity between Muslims and Jews, although the aggression issues most prominently from the former toward the latter, as opposed to the other way around. While it can be argued that man is inherently violent toward 'the other' by his nature, one could make a convincing argument that the hatred of the Jew is something taught by the Muslim to subsequent generations of his progeny. Not caught in the same obsession for dominance, the Jew concentrates his efforts mostly on bettering himself and his world. Generalization? Certainly, for examples can be found on both sides of the coin--- Muslims who seek peace regardless of ethnicity and Jews who single out others for violence on the basis of ethnicity.

    Overall, however, which of the two groups is more committed to the betterment of man? The Muslim or the Jew? By one standard of measure, consider the following two links. The first takes you to the list of Muslims who have received the Nobel Peace Prize; the second to the corresponding list of Jews who have been similarly recognized.

    http://www.islamichistorymonth.com/education/nobel.php
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nobels.html
  2. 09 Feb '11 15:26
    Here's a little history lesson for you, because apparently it is needed. In the Middle Ages, when jews weren't being killed by christians, they were generally at least discriminated against. This also meant that many guilds blocked jews from their respective professions. In response to this, jews often took guildless jobs - street performers, artists, musicians, traders, and perhaps more importantly in this context - bankers. The Church had forbidden christians to charge interests on loans (the Bible is pretty clear on this) for many centuries, and jews took advantage of this by monopolizing the banking industry (the jews' reasoning being that their laws only applied to other jews, not christians). The Church eventually did remove the ban, but by that time it was already too late.

    Now, since most scientists were from wealthy backgrounds, and jews were often wealthy (since they made a lot of money in the banking and financial sectors), scientists were also often jews, particularly before WW2. This consideration is not so relevant anymore today, since ordinary people can become scientists too, although wealth still correlates with education.

    In any case, had there been an equivalent of a Nobel Prize in the 10th Century, the majority of its winners would be muslims. To suggest a link between a "violent nature" and scientific achievement is absurd at best, and a sign of pathological desire for self-parody at worst.
  3. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    09 Feb '11 15:42
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Overall, however, which of the two groups is more committed to the betterment of man? The Muslim or the Jew? By one standard of measure, consider the following two links. The first takes you to the list of Muslims who have received the Nobel Peace Prize; the second to the corresponding list of Jews who have been similarly recognized.
    The Nobel Peace Prize? Why so extraordinarily narrow an historical view? Why not take a broader view - one that takes in science, mathematics, jurisprudence and various other things and the whole sweep of history that tees up what we think of as Western Civilization?
  4. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Feb '11 15:45
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Here's an interesting thought problem. Between fostering annihilation and encouraging contribution toward man's plight, which is preferred?

    There exists an enmity between Muslims and Jews, although the aggression issues most prominently from the former toward the latter, as opposed to the other way around. While it can be argued that man is inherentl ...[text shortened]... nth.com/education/nobel.php
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nobels.html
    I guess that settles it then.
  5. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    09 Feb '11 15:46
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Not caught in the same obsession for dominance, the Jew concentrates his efforts mostly on bettering himself and his world. Generalization?
    Muslims not concentrated on bettering himself and his world? Does this apply to the 200,000,000 Indonesian Muslims or the 140,000,000 Bangladeshi Muslims, for instance? The reason I ask is that you asked yourself whether what you were asserting was a generalization. And then didn't answer your own question.
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Feb '11 15:56
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Here's a little history lesson for you, because apparently it is needed. In the Middle Ages, when jews weren't being killed by christians, they were generally at least discriminated against. This also meant that many guilds blocked jews from their respective professions. In response to this, jews often took guildless jobs - street performers, artists, m ...[text shortened]... achievement is absurd at best, and a sign of pathological desire for self-parody at worst.
    So Jews owe all of their achievements to the historical accident of the invidious discrimination against them having the unintended reverse effect?

    Come on, KN, give us a little more credit than that. Huh? Also, that explanation would not apply to the American experience, which has yielded similar results.

    Now, I don't buy into any "nature" or "inherent" nonsense. I do credit the principles of stressing work and education rather than physical showmanship and leisure that has been a staple of Jewish education since time immemorial (though which is sadly receding today due to the meddling of a few fanatics) with causing some of that result.
  7. 09 Feb '11 16:28
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Here's an interesting thought problem. Between fostering annihilation and encouraging contribution toward man's plight, which is preferred?

    There exists an enmity between Muslims and Jews, although the aggression issues most prominently from the former toward the latter, as opposed to the other way around. While it can be argued that man is inherentl ...[text shortened]... nth.com/education/nobel.php
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nobels.html
    You say, "Overall, however, which of the two groups is more committed to the betterment of man? The Muslim or the Jew?"

    This is a loaded question, like leading the witness, loaded with the idea that religion is the critical factor, when the critical factor might be something else.
  8. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 16:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Here's a little history lesson for you, because apparently it is needed. In the Middle Ages, when jews weren't being killed by christians, they were generally at least discriminated against. This also meant that many guilds blocked jews from their respective professions. In response to this, jews often took guildless jobs - street performers, artists, m achievement is absurd at best, and a sign of pathological desire for self-parody at worst.
    I noticed that you conveniently cherry-picked your source, omitting several aspects of history and then committing several more errors on your way to... some vast conspiracy?

    Your re-imagination of history could not be more convoluted--- or wrong.

    Your understanding of the Nobel Prize--- and what categories are considered--- is lacking.

    Now, since most scientists were from wealthy backgrounds, and jews were often wealthy...
    Oops! Your broad generalizations
    or, is it prejudice?
    is showing!
  9. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 17:00
    Originally posted by FMF
    The Nobel Peace Prize? Why so extraordinarily narrow an historical view? Why not take a broader view - one that takes in science, mathematics, jurisprudence and various other things and the whole sweep of history that tees up what we think of as Western Civilization?
    The Nobel Prize is, for our time, a pretty big deal. It is hardly narrow in scope, although one could argue that its aim is singular, thus somehow restrictive. Six fields with one goal: service to mankind. When you stop to think that only 543 prizes have been awarded to individuals since 1901, and an overwhelming amount of the 840 recipients/co-recipients
    at least 163 by this count
    have been Jewish
    in comparison to the exceedingly low number of Muslims
    , you have to ask yourself what could be causing the difference.

    That being said, I mentioned in the OP that this is but one modern standard of measure. By which other gauges would you are to compare the output?
  10. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 17:02
    Originally posted by FMF
    Muslims not concentrated on bettering himself and his world? Does this apply to the 200,000,000 Indonesian Muslims or the 140,000,000 Bangladeshi Muslims, for instance? The reason I ask is that you asked yourself whether what you were asserting was a generalization. And then didn't answer your own question.
    I did answer the question. You can see my answer to the question in the first word immediately following the question mark: "Certainly..." as well as within the sentence which follows that word.
  11. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 17:02
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I guess that settles it then.
    As usual, great contribution.
  12. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 17:05
    Originally posted by JS357
    You say, "Overall, however, which of the two groups is more committed to the betterment of man? The Muslim or the Jew?"

    This is a loaded question, like leading the witness, loaded with the idea that religion is the critical factor, when the critical factor might be something else.
    I don't know that all people who call themselves Jewish are doing so on the basis of a religion. Nonetheless, it's pretty telling when one group of people have an output so far surpassing another group with whom there is such enmity. Telling, of course, which of the two's perspective ought to be trusted and which ought to be questioned.
  13. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    09 Feb '11 17:08
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    As usual, great contribution.
    There's nothing to contribute here that will not feed the troll.

    So, here, have a cookie.
  14. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Feb '11 17:13
    Originally posted by Palynka
    There's nothing to contribute here that will not feed the troll.

    So, here, have a cookie.
    Blow your cookie out your donkey, troll.
  15. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    09 Feb '11 17:15
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    I did answer the question. You can see my answer to the question in the first word immediately following the question mark: "Certainly..." as well as within the sentence which follows that word.
    Do you ever worry that your broad generalizations might simply show prejudice on your part?