@wildgrass saidSo no religious voices allowed according to you? Do you wonder why those with a religious faith, don’t want to leave those in charge of government, left to those who oppose region, not just think they should tolerate it.
Pastors, sure. Politicians, no way. Get out of here with the divisive religious rhetoric it's disgusting.
@KellyJay saidI think you missed the proviso, never mind. As to your beliefs, you never stop banging on about them in these forums, except when presented with the opportunity of justifying/explaining them, then you drop them like a hot potato and pretend you didn't say things. 'What me, homophobic? You must have the wrong guy....' If you can't even be honest and open about your own beliefs, how do you expect to be taken seriously?
How is your stance against intolerance not be at odds with not caring what others believe? You classify my beliefs as fostering intolerance because you are suggesting you clearly understand my beliefs, which I have to say, I doubt that entirely, as you judge my beliefs. You're full of contradictions.
@Rajk999 saidI don't think I'm 'particularly' anything, about any religion in particular, nor am I 'promoting' any of them. Hamas, the Taliban, I get it; even here where mostly 'soft' Islam is the order of the day, women having to cover their heads, fasting for 30 days, it's all mumbo jumbo as far as I'm concerned, but then so is Christianity. The world was made in six days, the world is a few thousand years old, and snakes can talk....Righto, that must be it, then, let's all believe that, then, shall we? As for Christian tolerance, I don't see a lot of it in these forums from certain people, to be honest. Religious tolerance is writ large into the Indonesian constitution, and nobody's trying to kill anyone else, praise be to Mohammed, or Jesus, whichever prophet is your preference, and whichever you were born to believe in.
Only Islam promotes this doctrine, and if I remember correctly you were particularly tolerant of Islam because of your connection with people in a Muslim country. Your tolerance is what is misguided. Tolerating evil is not tolerance, but plain stupidity, and eventually leads to far greater problems.
Tolerance is good for petty matters, but for critical doctrines, toleranc ...[text shortened]... mote intolerance and kill infidels, you are in fact keeping to the teaching and example of Mohammed.
@Indonesia-Phil saidI can discuss anything; it doesn’t matter, and my off-topic beliefs are brought up. In this thread, however, people’s beliefs are part of the topic. I don’t mind justifying my beliefs at all, so that is a false statement. I don't broadcast my political stand because I believe the left and right parties are two sides of the same coin; you can pick one, and both are full of flawed people.
I think you missed the proviso, never mind. As to your beliefs, you never stop banging on about them in these forums, except when presented with the opportunity of justifying/explaining them, then you drop them like a hot potato and pretend you didn't say things. 'What me, homophobic? You must have the wrong guy....' If you can't even be honest and open about your own beliefs, how do you expect to be taken seriously?
If you are going to dismiss me for something that is not true, it's up to you.
@Indonesia-Phil saidHere you are doing it again and then claiming you are not. A clear sign that you are delusional. Here it is .. the trying to equate Islam with Chrsitianity.
I don't think I'm 'particularly' anything, about any religion in particular, nor am I 'promoting' any of them. Hamas, the Taliban, I get it; even here where mostly 'soft' Islam is the order of the day, women having to cover their heads, fasting for 30 days, it's all mumbo jumbo as far as I'm concerned, but then so is Christianity. The world was made in six days, the wo ...[text shortened]... Mohammed, or Jesus, whichever prophet is your preference, and whichever you were born to believe in.
Islam is ...... .all mumbo jumbo as far as I'm concerned, but then so is Christianity.
Its not the same. Then you equate Islams murderous ways, with Christians believing in Earth made in 6 days ? Are you for real?
You need to take a close look at your ability to discern.
@Rajk999 saidI really don't know what you're on about. It's actually easy to equate different things if one finds a common denominator. All religions rely and always have relied upon there being a divine creator, so if one rejects the idea of a divine creator then everything ends up in the same basket. To give a simple example, orange and purple are different colours, but I dislike both of them equally; see how it works?
Here you are doing it again and then claiming you are not. A clear sign that you are delusional. Here it is .. the trying to equate Islam with Chrsitianity.
Islam is ...... .all mumbo jumbo as far as I'm concerned, but then so is Christianity.
Its not the same. Then you equate Islams murderous ways, with Christians believing in Earth made in 6 days ? Are you for real?
You need to take a close look at your ability to discern.
Biblical 'scholars' have famously dated the beginning of the world to be about 6000 years ago, you know, the book which you think contains the truth, and you call me delusional?
And before you go off on your riff about all Christians being peace - loving and tolerant, the Spanish Inquisition weren't handing out food hampers, were they?
You don't like it because I'm comparing and finding similarities between something which you believe in and something which you don't believe in, you need to take a close look at your ability to see common factors.
@Indonesia-Phil saidOk, well a common denominator does not equate anything. All it means is that there are some things in common, and that cannot be equality unless you want it to be, which is what you are trying to do. I take it you cannot see the difference between Islam calling for death to unbelievers, and it is practiced right now in several parts of the world, whereas there is no such thing in the teachings of Christ, neither is such a barbaric religion practiced among Christians.
I really don't know what you're on about. It's actually easy to equate different things if one finds a common denominator. All religions rely and always have relied upon there being a divine creator, so if one rejects the idea of a divine creator then everything ends up in the same basket. To give a simple example, orange and purple are different colours, but I dislike ...[text shortened]... ing which you don't believe in, you need to take a close look at your ability to see common factors.
There is no part of the Bible that says to do what they did in the Inquisition. So thats irrelevant.
The point is what the Quran teaches v what the Bible teaches is miles apart.
Again common factors cannot possibly be equality. Did you do any mathematics in school?
@Rajk999 saidYou're missing the bigger picture, which is understandable. Again, on an intellectual level, if one rejects the idea of all religious superstition, any differences between its' various manifestations become meaningless, I don't have to try very hard to make that work.
Ok, well a common denominator does not equate anything. All it means is that there are some things in common, and that cannot be equality unless you want it to be, which is what you are trying to do. I take it you cannot see the difference between Islam calling for death to unbelievers, and it is practiced right now in several parts of the world, whereas there is no such thi ...[text shortened]... s apart.
Again common factors cannot possibly be equality. Did you do any mathematics in school?
Of course I can 'see' the differences, and on an 'emotional' level, Hinduism is for me the most beautiful religion.
On a practical level, I daresay for someone being tortured or burned alive in the name of the Christian god, whether it's 'in the bible' or not is fairly academic. So 'Christians' do unchristian things and don't follow the bible, well there's a revelation...By the same token, of course, all Muslims don't follow the teachings of the Quran to the letter, i.e. they aren't all murderous rapists, in the twenty or so years of living here, I've not been raped or murdered once, in fact, as in infidel, I've felt nothing but the warm embrace of a culture at peace with itself and with the world, and the world could learn a lot from it.
Anyway this should all be in 'Spirituality', so I leave you with your 6000 year old Earth, and hope you find your own peace.
@Rajk999 saidOh, Raj -- your verbiage is like spittle on the tide of the Noumenon.
Ok, well a common denominator does not equate anything. All it means is that there are some things in common, and that cannot be equality unless you want it to be, which is what you are trying to do. I take it you cannot see the difference between Islam calling for death to unbelievers, and it is practiced right now in several parts of the world, whereas there is no such thi ...[text shortened]... s apart.
Again common factors cannot possibly be equality. Did you do any mathematics in school?
@Indonesia-Phil saidApparently you are judging Islam on your personal experience. I know a handful of Muslims myself, and they are all decent people. But should I ignore the thousands of Christians who were killed by Muslims in Nigeria? I dont think so.
You're missing the bigger picture, which is understandable. Again, on an intellectual level, if one rejects the idea of all religious superstition, any differences between its' various manifestations become meaningless, I don't have to try very hard to make that work.
Of course I can 'see' the differences, and on an 'emotional' level, Hinduism is for me the most beaut ...[text shortened]... e in 'Spirituality', so I leave you with your 6000 year old Earth, and hope you find your own peace.
@Rajk999 saidWell, you know, personal experience isn't a bad thing to go by. As for genocide in Nigeria, I don't think you should ignore it either, who said anything about ignoring genocide? Not I, I condemn violence in all of its' nasty manifestations. Mister Putin (he's Russian, you know) attends services at the Russian Orthodox Church, and here's a thought; I wonder when he brushes his teeth at night and puts on his PJs, whether he says a little prayer for the tens of thousands of young Russians that he's sent to their death in the name of his land - grab, and he's not done yet....There are no angels, except angels, if you believe in angels....
Apparently you are judging Islam on your personal experience. I know a handful of Muslims myself, and they are all decent people. But should I ignore the thousands of Christians who were killed by Muslims in Nigeria? I dont think so.
@Indonesia-Phil said"There are no angels, except angels, if you believe in angels."
Well, you know, personal experience isn't a bad thing to go by. As for genocide in Nigeria, I don't think you should ignore it either, who said anything about ignoring genocide? Not I, I condemn violence in all of its' nasty manifestations. Mister Putin (he's Russian, you know) attends services at the Russian Orthodox Church, and here's a thought; I wonder when he brus ...[text shortened]... nd - grab, and he's not done yet....There are no angels, except angels, if you believe in angels....
This is a great line, is it an original or a quote from somewhere?
@wildgrass saidAll my own work, dear chap, but thanks for the accolade!
"There are no angels, except angels, if you believe in angels."
This is a great line, is it an original or a quote from somewhere?
@Indonesia-Phil saidIn response to your claim that Indonesia is a peaceful Islamic country, here is a comment from Google about Christians being persecuted by Muslims:
Well, you know, personal experience isn't a bad thing to go by. As for genocide in Nigeria, I don't think you should ignore it either, who said anything about ignoring genocide? Not I, I condemn violence in all of its' nasty manifestations. Mister Putin (he's Russian, you know) attends services at the Russian Orthodox Church, and here's a thought; I wonder when he brus ...[text shortened]... nd - grab, and he's not done yet....There are no angels, except angels, if you believe in angels....
Christians face persecution in Indonesia through legal restrictions, social discrimination, and violence, despite constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. The intensity of persecution varies regionally, with the province of Aceh, which has Sharia law, and other provinces like West Sumatra and West Java experiencing higher levels of persecution, including difficulties building churches, pressure on converts, and attacks by radical Islamist groups.
Types of Persecution
Legal Restrictions: Laws, particularly blasphemy laws, can be used to restrict religious activities and target minorities.
Governmental Complicity: While the government may not always persecute Christians, it often fails to defend them, and government officials have been known to facilitate or turn a blind eye to religious discrimination.
Violence and Discrimination: Radical Islamist groups have destroyed churches and committed violence against Christian communities.
Regional Differences: The province of Aceh, where Sharia law is implemented, is a particular hotbed for anti-Christian activity, including public flogging and the impossibility of building new churches.
Contributing Factors
Rise of Radical Islam: The growth of radical Islamist movements in recent decades has increased aggression and violence against Christians.
Local Bylaws: Some local bylaws have instituted Sharia law, further restricting religious freedom for non-Muslims.
Difficulty in Religious Conversion: It is difficult for Muslims to convert to Christianity and for Christians to evangelize, and those who do often face persecution from family, community members, and local governments.
Regional Distribution
Areas of High Persecution: Aceh, West Sumatra, West Java, and parts of East and Central Java experience high levels of discrimination and violence against Christians.
Areas of Less Hostility: Regions like Kalimantan (Borneo), Sulawesi, and Papua have historically been less hostile to Christians compared to the western parts of the country.
@Rajk999 saidI've been relaying personal experience, none of which I recognise in your quoted passage, having travelled throughout Indonesia. I mean what is this, a place where opinions and experiences are exchanged, or somewhere where we quote to each other from the internet?
In response to your claim that Indonesia is a peaceful Islamic country, here is a comment from Google about Christians being persecuted by Muslims:
Christians face persecution in Indonesia through legal restrictions, social discrimination, and violence, despite constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. The intensity of persecution varies regionally, with the provi ...[text shortened]... have historically been less hostile to Christians compared to the western parts of the country.