- Joined
- 21 Aug 03
- Moves
- 655754
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldPersonally, I would like to see something published.
Why not send at least some info, not all of it, to no1 through PM. I mean, he doesn't seem like a person who would post any of it in the forums, not that people are supposed to anyway. Seems that way that everyone would be happy.
However I do not believe posting it to specific individuals would be fair to everyone else.
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldI don't want to be a secret conduit; the specific conclusions should be available for all to see. The presentation of such information would go a long way to shortening these types of threads and discussions; it's been the choice of the Game Mods to not support their conclusions with any facts. Blaming delays on me for your own failures is pretty unconvincing, Phlab.
Why not send at least some info, not all of it, to no1 through PM. I mean, he doesn't seem like a person who would post any of it in the forums, not that people are supposed to anyway. Seems that way that everyone would be happy.
Originally posted by PhlabibitIt's not no1marauder who slows the team down. It's the fact that many people have a problem with a system which is incomprehensible and secretive. I believe that it would speed up the process if no1marauder's suggestions actually were implemented, and it would make the game mods life easier as well.
It slows the team down because Russ takes longer and longer to que up the next batch since everyone takes the piss with each name dropped.
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Ok, this is obviously going no where so how about this: Show us 1 game of Exy's that shows us that he cheated, just 1 clear game. There won't even have to be notation or specific moves that show that he cheated. A lot of people on this site have engines and can examine the game by themselves. That way the mods still haven't given out anything specific, and the information is available to anyone.
Originally posted by NordlysIt would make the cheat's easier as well... and even explaining to you why would also do the same.
It's not no1marauder who slows the team down. It's the fact that many people have a problem with a system which is incomprehensible and secretive. I believe that it would speed up the process if no1marauder's suggestions actually were implemented, and it would make the game mods life easier as well.
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Originally posted by PhlabibitThe fact of the matter is that the only people that are happy with the the way the Game Mods are working are those who don't know about the team, and those who haven't really thought it through.
We're not moving forward any quicker by getting burned by the guy who demanded we get cracking.
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As it stands now, players are stating openly that they are afraid to improve due to the fact that it looks like anybody can get banned. You guys are asking for an awful lot of trust in a group of strangers who hold our future on the site in their hands, and who tell us absolutely nothing to allay our fears. I am vocal at the moment, because I honestly believe that anybody could be next and I would hope other people to be vocal if I got banned out of the blue.
Despite the fact that people are saying that its only a chess site, I wouldn't like to count the hours I have invested in this site since I subscribed. To suddenly be made an ridiculed outcast would be a horrible experience, I believe.
The one piece of "meaningful" information released by the mods so far has been a mocking post listing games in which Exy played poorly, which WASN'T used as evidence.
How can anybody be happy with these circumstances?
D
Originally posted by PhlabibitNo, it doesn't prove I'm wrong. Your post said that Exy was an 1100 player. So you show a graph where his rating is slightly below 1100. You miss the point entirely!
No, it only proves that Arrakis is wrong. That's all that post is for. Just cuz I say something doesn't mean it is proof Exy did or did not cheat.
Quit trying to spin everything I say. Did you even read the post I replied to?
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Just because a person has a temporary rating of 1100 doesn't mean he's an 1100 player! This is a very important point to be made. You said Exy was an 1100 rated player, but he was just starting out and we all start out at 1200! It takes a few months to play games and even longer to establish your true level of play. Therefore, you are misleading the general membership by claiming "Exy was an 1100 player".
Originally posted by PhlabibitI can’t help but be reminded of how criminologists (I think I’m using the right word) compare finger prints in criminal investigations. My understanding of it is limited but I will do my best.
We're not moving forward any quicker by getting burned by the guy who demanded we get cracking.
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The way I understand it is that comparisons are made on a point system, you find one similarity and that is one point, you find another and that is another point and so on. Some states have a minimum number of points needed to call it a match other states leave it up to the particular examiner knowing that finger print analysis is by its nature subjective. For instance, a five point match (a low match as I understand it) could rank higher than the point value given due to the quality of the particular points they DO have or due to other factors I’m not aware of.
The mods and those defending them in this case seem to want to make the point that determining a cheat is a subjective process. I would like to believe that it is but it is hard when I’m not allowed to know ANYTHING about said process. Now, it seems to me that comparing suspects games to that of an engine (or more likely a number of engines) would be a subjective process. How high a similarity constitutes a cheater? How many games need to match up? If no single game matches completely but some moves seem suspect can a cheater be banned on the basis of one move? If not, how many moves? I’m not looking for answers to these questions, I don’t really care. I do have some questions I would like answered:
1.Do you compare a suspects games to engines?
2.If yes, do you use any other technique that results in non-circumstantial evidence?
3.Do the accused get a chance to explain their actions prior to being banned?
4.Would you consider making No1 a game mod (assuming he would do it)?
5.If No1 cannot or will not be a mod would you be willing to explain your system to him in private? If he approves he can tell us it is a good system and I for one would accept it without further question.
Finally, I have been assured via pm by someone I respect and trust that Exy was cheating. I have accepted his/her assurances even though he/she was unwilling to explain to me how guilt was determined. However, I would like to see RHP move on from this debate and private assurance are probably not going to cut it for the public at large. I think a lot of people respect No1 at least on this topic and his involvement in the system or approval of the system, I think, would go a long way towards silencing its critics. Further, I think you can be assured your secret is safe with him as he hates cheaters more than anyone I can think of and would never do anything to make life easier for them.
Ok, that took a long time to say not much…sorry.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by arrakisi think his graph hits the point exactly.
No, it doesn't prove I'm wrong. Your post said that Exy was an 1100 player. So you show a graph where his rating is slightly below 1100. You miss the point entirely!
Just because a person has a temporary rating of 1100 doesn't mean he's an 1100 player! This is a very important point to be made. You said Exy was an 1100 rated player, but he was just s ...[text shortened]... y. Therefore, you are misleading the general membership by claiming "Exy was an 1100 player".
Originally posted by Ragnorakyou may as well preface this with "anyone who doesn't agree with me on anything ..."
The fact of the matter is that the only people that are happy with the the way the Game Mods are working are those who don't know about the team, and those who haven't really thought it through.
...
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i.e., "anyone who doesn't agree with me is inexperienced, uninformed, or hasn't spent the time thinking about it that i have, otherwise they would certainly have drawn the same conclusions that i have ..."
Originally posted by PhlabibitI honestly can't see how.
It would make the cheat's easier as well... and even explaining to you why would also do the same.
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High matchups are a good indication. I don't see how releasing a decent length game with 100% matchup is going to make life easier for cheats.
Non-human type moves are another obviously important key to evidence. How would showing a few of these types of moves to the masses help cheaters? They cheat cos they aren't as good at chess as their rating shows. How is a not too skilled cheat supposed to identify these moves, if Tebb and Gatecrasher are probably the only two on the team who could readily initially identify them.
Of course the team has tools that couldn't be released to the public, but there is definitely some info that could be released without adversely hindering the mod team. As things stand with the current secret police system, the question is whether it is better to have the mods or not.
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Originally posted by RagnorakThis is more opinion on your part. There are people that trust our decisions because they know we are putting hard work into this project and not dropping any names unless we are all 100 percent sure. To say they have not thought it through is false.
The fact of the matter is that the only people that are happy with the the way the Game Mods are working are those who don't know about the team, and those who haven't really thought it through.
As it stands now, players are stating openly that they are afraid to improve due to the fact that it looks like anybody can get banned. You guys are asking fo ...[text shortened]... rly, which WASN'T used as evidence.
How can anybody be happy with these circumstances?
D
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Originally posted by TheSkipperNO, NO, NO - I don't want to be part of a secret process; I want the conclusions made public enough so people can verify them and have confidence in the system. If there is not enough proof in the games themselves, then perhaps it is not "overwhelming evidence".
I can’t help but be reminded of how criminologists (I think I’m using the right word) compare finger prints in criminal investigations. My understanding of it is limited but I will do my best.
The way I understand it is that comparisons are made on a point system, you find one similarity and that is one point, you find another and that is another poin ...[text shortened]... to make life easier for them.
Ok, that took a long time to say not much…sorry.
TheSkipper