Being righteous, doing God's righteousness works.

@kellyjay said
Mankind's evil nature is passed down from Adam, we are sons of Adam, sons of man, but with Jesus Christ, born again, fulfilling what Scripture speaks about receiving a new birth, a new nature. Justification is but the first step when we receive the Lord, walking that out is a different thing it is where the sanctification begins.

We are born again from above, so we can w ...[text shortened]... created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So, are you saying you’re not evil by nature any more, because you believe Christ died for your sinfulness?

@moonbus said
So, are you saying you’re not evil by nature any more, because you believe Christ died for your sinfulness?

No, we are sinners saved by grace, being justified is one thing walking with the Lord is quite the other. We are to pick up our crosses and follow Christ, we are to repent, we are to confess our sins to the Lord so we can be forgiven. Justified is not having our crimes laid at our feet, but put on Jesus's cross abiding in Christ our nature is now changed, we have power over sin through Christ, the sin is still there, but now there is grace through faith.

1 John 1:7-9
English Standard Version
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 7

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

@kellyjay said
No, we are sinners saved by grace, being justified is one thing walking with the Lord is quite the other. We are to pick up our crosses and follow Christ, we are to repent, we are to confess our sins to the Lord so we can be forgiven. Justified is not having our crimes laid at our feet, but put on Jesus's cross abiding in Christ our nature is now changed, we have power over ...[text shortened]... Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I’m not asking whether you think you’re saved. I’m asking whether you think you’re an improved human being.

@kellyjay said
Justified is not having our crimes laid at our feet, but put on Jesus's cross abiding in Christ our nature is now changed, we have power over sin through Christ, the sin is still there, but now there is grace through faith.

abiding in Christ our nature is now changed

You insist your nature has changed, and yet you also insist that you are equally as "evil" as a rapist despite your belief in Christ.

@moonbus said
I’m not asking whether you think you’re saved. I’m asking whether you think you’re an improved human being.

I'm saved by grace through faith because this was done for me to me, I cannot claim any superiority over anyone else, I'm granted the righteousness of Jesus Christ by another, it isn't something I can claim as my own due to me. There is nothing I have to brag about, it is a work of God on our behalf, none of us can say we are better, it was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who saved us all, and all share the same grace of God through Jesus Christ, if we are adding to that to be better than anyone else by including our efforts or works, what we are really saying Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough, only someone wanting to be justified over another would do that.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

@kellyjay said
I'm saved by grace through faith because this was done for me to me, I cannot claim any superiority over anyone else, I'm granted the righteousness of Jesus Christ by another, it isn't something I can claim as my own due to me. There is nothing I have to brag about, it is a work of God on our behalf, none of us can say we are better, it was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who ...[text shortened]... sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I’m not asking you to compare yourself to anyone else. Are you a better person now than you were before you accepted Christ? Are you any less evil?

@moonbus said
I’m not asking you to compare yourself to anyone else. Are you a better person now than you were before you accepted Christ? Are you any less evil?

I believe so yes, now I care about what I do whereas before it had more to do with just what I get out of things, my perspective, my foundation for my life, rests in God not me so I have a plumb line to look at, a sure foundation to walk on. I have a fixed point that shows when I start to stray, where before my points of reference moved as my desires did, I could justify anything to myself without concern of missing the mark because where I threw my dart wherever it landed was fine, now my target so to speak is set by the One who is righteous, holy, good, love and never changes, never wavers, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Anyone who repents is better than before they stopped doing wrong, but this is more, this is a new nature altering the sinner.

@moonbus said
Christianity does not improve anyone in any way, nor does it propose to. We are all fallen sinners; that’s been official doctrine from the very beginnings of Christianity. “There are no good Christians in heaven, only forgiven ones.” I’m sure KellyJay will affirm that this is the doctrine.

A Christian is (apparently) transformed by the holy spirit. - How could such an occurrence be said 'not' to improve them in some way?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:22-23).

@kellyjay said
I believe so yes, now I care about what I do whereas before it had more to do with just what I get out of things, my perspective, my foundation for my life, rests in God not me so I have a plumb line to look at, a sure foundation to walk on. I have a fixed point that shows when I start to stray, where before my points of reference moved as my desires did, I could justify an ...[text shortened]... er than before they stopped doing wrong, but this is more, this is a new nature altering the sinner.

So, you are saying that mankind's nature not unalterable, after all. Anyway, that yours was altered.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
A Christian is (apparently) transformed by the holy spirit. - How could such an occurrence be said 'not' to improve them in some way?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law” (Galatians 5:22-23).

The doctrine is that the Holy Spirit is working those effects in mankind's faulty soul, not the man himself who has improved through his own effort. The man himself is only a corrupt vessel for the Holy Spirit to enter, and man's only choice is to let the Holy Spirit enter or to close himself off.

@moonbus said
So, you are saying that mankind's nature not unalterable, after all. Anyway, that yours was altered.

Correct, but it takes an act of God.

@kellyjay said
Where do you get your information, what is your primary documentation for your beliefs on hell and the common grave?

First of all Kelly please accept my apologies for picking this up late. I missed this post originally and am not in the habit of ignoring sensible questions.

The short answer is research into the route words that are translated as "Hell", which I'm going to share with you.

The place that you and Raj both seem to belive in isn't actually named in the bible. There is no word "Hell" in the bible at all; this is a misconception. The route words sometimes translated as hell are "Sheol"; "Hades"; "Gehenna"; and Tarturus. Sheol in the Hebrew Scriptures was the common grave, and in the Greek Scriptures Hades is the equivalent. Both in some translations incorrectly tanslated (62 times in some translations) as "Hell". The word "Tarturus" (also translated as Hell) is used in connection with fallen Angels e.g 2 Peter:4

Now we come onto the final word Gehenna, as this is the smoke that gives rise to the lengend of the fires of hell.

There are several instances in the Bible where the Israelites are expressly forbidden to pass their children through the fires of Moloch (child sacrifice by incinerating the child), one of the many is found at Lev 18:21 "Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God." (KJV)

Please note that there are several varitaions on the spelling of Molek including Molech; and Moloch.

Outside of Jurusalem was Gehenna, an ongoing bonfire in the Valley of Hinnom were everthing was dumped including bodies, and fired by the use of sulphur (brimstone). Is this starting to sound familiar?

As the Encyclopeadia America notes - "Gehenna" in the New Testament, where it is described as a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43). But this was not the orginal use, which takes us back to the prohibition on child sacrifice by fire to Moloch.

The Encyclopedia Britannica notes on Gihenna "Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom&rdquo😉, Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch"

@medullah said
First of all Kelly please accept my apologies for picking this up late. I missed this post originally and am not in the habit of ignoring sensible questions.

The short answer is research into the route words that are translated as "Hell", which I'm going to share with you.

The place that you and Raj both seem to belive in isn't actually named in the bible. There is no ...[text shortened]... ley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch"

Yes, Hell was a word that was translated from several different words, so the topic can be a little confusing if the focus is just the word "Hell." Occasionally a description of what is going to happen to those who die in their sins is described and no matter what word was used, it isn't going to be a pleasant thing.

Looking at why some are going to be cast into that isn't very nice either, outraging the Spirit of Grace is not good as we see in Hebrews if we by our disobedience and purposeful rejection of God who is trying to save us all excuses will be meaningless. Getting the One who loves us and laid down His life for us who suffered the wrath of God poured on Him fully for us sees what He did was rejected and neglected, the wrath of the Lamb that we see in Revelation is a fearful thought as well what punishment will be given out should cause us all to consider our ways of life.

God's love is part of His nature just as righteousness, holiness, goodness, and mercy for us to focus on one attribute of God His love, and we fail to take into account righteousness, goodness we run into much more danger than we do if we are confused about Hell.

Hebrews 10
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

@medullah said
First of all Kelly please accept my apologies for picking this up late. I missed this post originally and am not in the habit of ignoring sensible questions.

The short answer is research into the route words that are translated as "Hell", which I'm going to share with you.

The place that you and Raj both seem to belive in isn't actually named in the bible. There is no ...[text shortened]... ley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch"

So lets say you are right. The Rich Man in the parable, just went to the grave, what is the point of all of this Jesus says after the man died and went to the grave :

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:24-31 KJV)

So Jesus did not know the truth about the grave.

@kellyjay said
Yes, Hell was a word that was translated from several different words, so the topic can be a little confusing if the focus is just the word "Hell." Occasionally a description of what is going to happen to those who die in their sins is described and no matter what word was used, it isn't going to be a pleasant thing.

Looking at why some are going to be cast into that isn' ...[text shortened]... n, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Thanks for your observations, but in truth they don’t prove a Hell.

To burn somebody for all eternity is cruel. But the Scripture in Romans telling us that the wages of sin are death puts this to bed for me.

We can though agree to disagree like gentlemen, and put this to the side for another day?