17 Apr 22
Would it be fair to say that a plausible working definition of "believing in Jesus up to a point" [a phrase coined by KellyJay] would be [1] believing Jesus died for sinners and, through his death, paid for everyone's sins, BUT [2] not obeying his commandments and doing good works?
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidMatthew 7:21-23
Would it be fair to say that a plausible working definition of "believing in Jesus up to a point" [a phrase coined by KellyJay] would be [1] believing Jesus died for sinners and, through his death, paid for everyone's sins, BUT [2] not obeying his commandments and doing good works?
English Standard Version
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
17 Apr 22
@kellyjay said“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21-23
English Standard Version
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
So, No.[2] in my OP is the clincher?
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidI'm not running away from anything; there are people, and I'd say a vast number of them, who go through the motions; there is nothing real about their walk with the Lord, no change in their lives has ever occurred that took them from someone in the world into something else, where God is in them, they were born again, they have the Spirit of God within. It is all just; we do this because this is what we do in Jesus' name.
Oh good grief, KellyJay, don't run away with your second post on a thread!
Being part of the group can make you feel accepted, but that is a group, not Christ; in Christ is more than just knowing where to say 'Amen' during a sermon. Those in the most danger are those with just enough religion to 'feel' they got their bases covered without ever getting to Christ personally. From that group of people, many realize what is going on and have to choose, find Christ or walk away from the fake, unrealistic life they were living.
17 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidThis "walk with the Lord" comprises obeying Jesus's commandments amd doing good works, right?
there are people, and I'd say a vast number of them, who go through the motions; there is nothing real about their walk with the Lord, no change in their lives has ever occurred that took them from someone in the world into something else,
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@fmf saidWell KellyJay’s forum slogan is “Walk your faith”.
This "walk with the Lord" comprises obeying Jesus's commandments amd doing good works, right?
Goodness knows what that actually means to him because all he (and sonship and Josephw) ever talk about is stuff related to the inerrancy of their personal dogmas.
17 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidIf the degree to which "God is in them" can vary from Christian to Christian and none of them is perfect, how can any Christian "know" if "God is in them" sufficiently and thus "know" that they are "saved"?
there is nothing real about their walk with the Lord, no change in their lives has ever occurred that took them from someone in the world into something else, where God is in them, they were born again, they have the Spirit of God within.
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidThat is part of it, yes, but you can look at the scriptures and see precisely how far that goes, too; Jesus spoke about a guy who in prayer was thanking God for all of the things he did, while another bowed his head saying forgive me Lord, a sinner. Jesus said that the one asking forgiveness was the only one forgiven of those two. It isn't a merit-based religion; none of us can do enough good works; we all fail at keeping His commands; we either trust in His salvation, or we are doing something else or nothing.
This "walk with the Lord" comprises obeying Jesus's commandments amd doing good works, right?
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidIt is a binary thing, yes-no, true-false; it is like being pregnant you are, or you are not; there are no degrees of being in Christ. If you don't know, that is a matter of concern; pray until you are; it isn't something we have to wonder about, that isn't putting our faith in Him; that is wishful thinking. Our hope is in God's promises; those who seek Him with all their hearts will find Him.
If the degree to which "God is in them" can vary from Christian to Christian and none of them is perfect, how can any Christian "know" if "God is in them" sufficiently and thus "know" that they are "saved"?
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidIt's a supernatural thing. You don't believe in the supernatural, and are experientially without knowledge of it, therefore you can't "know" one way or the other.
If the degree to which "God is in them" can vary from Christian to Christian and none of them is perfect, how can any Christian "know" if "God is in them" sufficiently and thus "know" that they are "saved"?
So this is it:
When one is "born again", which is exclusively a supernatural act of God, and not based on the performance of the one being "born again", God is revealed and manifested in the one that "believes".
The behavior of the one that is "born again" is subsequent to the act of God that causes one to be "born again", and should, but not always or at all times, be conforming to the will of God as it is plainly described throughout the scripture.
Perfection will not be attained in this lifetime, but will happen at the resurrection.
Intellectually it can't get simpler than that, but it is spiritually beyond the grasp of the unbeliever.
@kellyjay saidSo, you declare yourself to be someone who is among those who can, according to your beliefs, be truthfully described as "God is in them": it is a binary thing: it is a "yes": it is true, right?
It is a binary thing, yes-no, true-false; it is like being pregnant you are, or you are not; there are no degrees of being in Christ. If you don't know, that is a matter of concern; pray until you are; it isn't something we have to wonder about, that isn't putting our faith in Him; that is wishful thinking. Our hope is in God's promises; those who seek Him with all their hearts will find Him.
17 Apr 22
@josephw saidFor many years I did believe that it was "a supernatural thing". So, it is rather inaccurate of you to say that I am "experientially without knowledge of it". It is a matter of faith. And I understand what it is you have faith in and what your faith makes you believe about yourself.
It's a supernatural thing. You don't believe in the supernatural, and are experientially without knowledge of it, therefore you can't "know" one way or the other.
17 Apr 22
@fmf saidI'm a Christian saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and like all who come to God, they receive the Spirit of God, so true, right.
So, you declare yourself to be someone who is among those who can, according to your beliefs, be truthfully described as "God is in them": it is a binary thing: it is yes: it is true, right?