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@fmf saidI don't care that much who "coined" a phrase - "believing in Jesus up to a point."
Would it be fair to say that a plausible working definition of "believing in Jesus up to a point" [a phrase coined by KellyJay] would be [1] believing Jesus died for sinners and, through his death, paid for everyone's sins, BUT [2] not obeying his commandments and doing good works?
Everybody who has believed in Jesus Christ, I think, believed in Jesus up to a point.
I don't think there has been an exception in history.
I don't think many, unless they were at the very point of believing or being killed or dying in a few seconds, did not believe with SOME reservations.
My belief is that everyone who believes in the Lord Jesus subsequently will be TESTED in some manner concerning his trust.
The proving of one's faith by some trial, I think, in some degree and repetitively is unavoidable.
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Because everyone who believes in Jesus probably has some reservation, Paul prayed that the Christians would allow Jesus to make His home in thier hearts through faith.
That is to be strengthened into that inner realm in thier being - the inner man.
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father . . . that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, . . . " (See Eph. 3:14-17)
Because of "believing in Jesus up to a point" the apostle prayed that the believing that Christ can be everything we need would grow, expand, deepen, filling every chamber of the psychological heart, not just visiting but settling dfown to make His home perminently there - having fuller and fuller authroity to FILL the heart of belief.
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@josephw saidFaith makes people think that Jesus rose from the dead.
For example: let's say you discover that Jesus actually rose from the grave. You understand it's true. You believe it. That's faith. Faith didn't make you believe it.
Faith makes people think that the murder of the world's entire population [aside from one family] was morally sound.
Faith makes people think that Hebrew genocides were morally sound.
Faith makes people think that slavery was morally sound.
Faith makes people think that executing homosexuals was [or even is] morally sound.
Faith makes people think that eternal torture is somehow morally coherent.
Faith makes people think that Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Faith makes people think that the Book of Revelation isn't just a bunch of manipulative mumbo jumbo.
Faith makes people think that the Gospels were written by people who met Jesus.
Faith makes people think that they are immortal, as I said before.
Faith makes people think all manner of things.
@fmf saidFaith is a matter of trust; you can trust a bank to keep your income and trust your friends. Faith does not compel anyone to do anything; if I'm going to trust God, I will act accordingly, doing what I believe I should because God cares for them and wants the best for them. There is no makes people; you act as if faith is a gun to people's heads; sin does that; it compels while love doesn't demand its way. You got it backward.
Faith makes people think that Jesus rose from the dead.
Faith makes people think that the murder of the world's entire population [aside from one family] was morally sound.
Faith makes people think that Hebrew genocides were morally sound.
Faith makes people think that slavery was morally sound.
Faith makes people think that executing homosexuals was [or even is] mo ...[text shortened]... le think that they are immortal, as I said before.
Faith makes people think all manner of things.
@kellyjay saidFaith makes you think certain things.
Faith is a matter of trust; you can trust a bank to keep your income and trust your friends. Faith does not compel anyone to do anything; if I'm going to trust God, I will act accordingly, doing what I believe I should because God cares for them and wants the best for them.
@kellyjay saidyou act as if faith is a gun to people's heads
you act as if faith is a gun to people's heads; sin does that; it compels while love doesn't demand its way.
I have said no such thing and, psychologically speaking, this metaphor is a dishonest rhetorical gimmick.
My love for my wife, for example, makes me think certain things about her, myself, and about the world. This love and trust is a good analogy for the kind of faith we are discussing. To analogize these things that I think about my wife to a gun being held to my head would be utter nonsense.
@kellyjay saidThat you have sidestepped the list of things that faith makes people think is duly noted.
Faith is a matter of trust; you can trust a bank to keep your income and trust your friends. Faith does not compel anyone to do anything; if I'm going to trust God, I will act accordingly, doing what I believe I should because God cares for them and wants the best for them. There is no makes people; you act as if faith is a gun to people's heads; sin does that; it compels while love doesn't demand its way. You got it backward.
@fmf saidFaith, the word applies to that we believe is worthy of our trust. Your faith can be in anything or anyone. You choose to act on what you believe to be true; you put gas in your car if you believe the gauge tells you about running out. How we define the universe/world/society makes us think certain things because we believe certain things to be valid we order our lives accordingly.
Faith makes you think certain things.
@fmf saidYou are getting a little free with that word dishonest; worse, you can disagree with how I am looking at something to say I'm being dishonest is calling me out for being deceitful.
you act as if faith is a gun to people's heads
I have said no such thing and, psychologically speaking, this metaphor is a dishonest rhetorical gimmick.
My love for my wife, for example, makes me think certain things about her, myself, and about the world. This love and trust is a good analogy for the kind of faith we are discussing. To analogize these things that I think about my wife to a gun being held to my head would be utter nonsense.
@kellyjay saidI am calling you out, KellyJay. You have been acting strangely for about 3-4 weeks. Perhaps it is a kind of defensive crouch?
You are getting a little free with that word dishonest; worse, you can disagree with how I am looking at something to say I'm being dishonest is calling me out for being deceitful.
@kellyjay saidNope. Just telling you what I think. I do not consider myself "the lone voice of truth". Far from it. I've never suggested it. Nice strawman, KellyJay. Yet ANOTHER tiny weeny bit of dishonesty in your approach to discourse with me.
Calling me out, you have a lot of hubris; you must consider yourself the lone voice of truth in our age.
