Believing in Jesus... up to a point

@josephw said
Faith is based in reality. Otherwise the exercise of it is an illusion.

I am keenly aware of what faith makes people believe about reality. And I am also aware that believers do not see their faith as being illusory.

-Removed-

Different?

One is lost. In darkness. Unbelieving in the Lord that died for them.

They get saved. Born again. Regenerated spiritually. I think that is the difference.

Or are you talking about something else?

@fmf said
the issue isn't about me or my faith

Yes it is, because your faith is what is making you think that you have been supernaturally transformed.

No it isn't.

My faith isn't "making" me think anything.

You don't seem to know what faith is.

@josephw said
You don't seem to know what faith is.

Yes, I do know what it is. Losing one's long-held faith gives one a very vivid insight into what is was and is. Perhaps my insight even makes me more able to understand what faith is than you are. Who knows?

@fmf said
I do have "experiencial knowledge".

But not supernatural knowledge.

Being born again is a spiritual experience. If you had experienced it you would know it spiritually.

@josephw said
My faith isn't "making" me think anything.

It absolutely is. For example, it's making you think that it has supernaturally transformed you, and, another example, it makes you think that you are immortal.

@josephw said
But not supernatural knowledge.

There is only speculation and conjecture about supernatural things, not knowledge.

@fmf said
I don't know you mean.

Say again.

If what you meant to say is "I don't know what you mean", then what is it I said that you don't "know what I mean"?

@josephw said
Being born again is a spiritual experience. If you had experienced it you would know it spiritually.

"Spiritual experiences" are all functions of cognition.

@josephw said
Say again.

If what you meant to say is "I don't know what you mean", then what is it I said that you don't "know what I mean"?

You used the cliché/idiom "shot in the dark". I have no idea if you are attempting to talk to me in earnest or whether you are being fatuous. Explain what you mean. Or don't. Up to you.

@rajk999 said
They cannot bear the teachings of Christ so your questions have them very uneasy.

Didn’t you once say we don’t need a Savior He saved us then went away?

@fmf said
I am keenly aware of what faith makes people believe about reality. And I am also aware that believers do not see their faith as being illusory.

Faith doesn't "make" one believe anything. You are merely "keenly" aware of what you think faith is, but without personal experience of the spiritual experience of the operation and application of true faith.

@fmf said
I am keenly aware of what faith makes people believe about reality. And I am also aware that believers do not see their faith as being illusory.

Faith doesn't "make" one believe anything. You are merely "keenly" aware of what you think faith is, but without personal experience of the spiritual experience of the operation and application of true faith.

@josephw said
Faith doesn't "make" one believe anything.

It absolutely does.

@josephw said
You are merely "keenly" aware of what you think faith is, but without personal experience of the spiritual experience of the operation and application of true faith.

I do have personal experience of the personal phenomenon you are referring to.