Good sci-fi is about the present

@kellyjay said
Please, you are telling from the day you were born all of your views about this, that, and the other thing have not changed???

You said this:

Thanks for sharing your ever-changing thoughts at the moment on the topic we are discussing because you have been on several different sides of this and many other discussions.

It is so far from being true about the discussions that we have had, it comes across as dishonest trash talk, sorry to have to say so, KellyJay.

@fmf said
You said this:

Thanks for sharing your ever-changing thoughts at the moment on the topic we are discussing because you have been on several different sides of this and many other discussions.

It is so far from being true about the discussions that we have had, it comes across as dishonest trash talk, sorry to have to say so, KellyJay.

I'm saying this to you if we were discussing a rock, then our thoughts about it would only be true as they related to the rock, not each other. You are always going off on me and others as we are only expressing our thoughts, well, DUH. I'm saying the topic of moral absolutes is not at the whims of our thoughts, and you have been changing your mind on countless issues. That is not a criticism; it is a truism as it is true for everyone single one of us, including me. You think expressing facts are dishonest trash talk, so be it.

The topic of Hell is brought up, either true or not; if true, then so is its maker, which is God. God is timeless, changeless, the same yesterday, today, and forever He does not change. God does not improve or diminish, and His judgments are taking in every single minuscule minute iota of facts there is as He weights out our actions and as you look around the world today you think He is going to accept any of us just on our righteousness alone, no, I don't think so, you can mark that if you like.

@fmf said
None of these assertions is anything other than some blend of 'IT IS WHAT IT IS' and 'SMELL THE GLOVE', writ large.

Don't pretend that you are, by reciting such assertions, making a case for the coherence of the morally grotesque ideology that you champion.

I'm giving you my opinion on the topic at hand; I base it on something outside of just my thought process, as we do all things we study if it were a scientific topic, a natural one, and so on. My assertions, your assertions are all coming from within us true, but what are they based on? Many things happen in life that we don't like, and that does not mean they are not true. You don't like something, so it is not valid, you are not that powerful or important.

@kellyjay said
I'm giving you my opinion on the topic at hand; I base it on something outside of just my thought process, as we do all things we study if it were a scientific topic, a natural one, and so on. My assertions, your assertions are all coming from within us true, but what are they based on? Many things happen in life that we don't like, and that does not mean they are not true. You don't like something, so it is not valid, you are not that powerful or important.

I know what you believe. I understand your assertions. It's not about whether I like what you believe. It's not about whether I like your assertions.

On the question of the supposed moral coherence of eternal torture in burning flames, you seem to me to be bailing out and/or merely settling for "I believe it is coherent because I believe it is coherent".

@fmf said
I know what you believe. I understand your assertions. It's not about whether I like what you believe. It's not about whether I like your assertions.

On the question of the supposed moral coherence of eternal torture in burning flames, you seem to me to be bailing out and/or merely settling for "I believe it is coherent because I believe it is coherent".

Do you disagree that God has a right to judge sin and evil with a no exception policy since He is the one who created everything, sustains everything, and was all created for His pleasure? Don't you think that the One who knows absolutely everything about everything will not judge properly? I believe He has the right to do that, and I believe He will do it. When every secret thing becomes known, everyone will bow to Him and acknowledge His Lordship, and those that deserve Hell will be thrown into where they will remain outside of the new heaven and earth He is making right now.

Not sure what you are questioning, what doesn't make sense in all of that, just the fact you don't like the idea of Hell, and you and many, if not most you know, could end up there, and you and others are doing your level best to keep it that way?

@kellyjay said
Do you disagree that God has a right to judge sin and evil with a no exception policy since He is the one who created everything, sustains everything, and was all created for His pleasure? Don't you think that the One who knows absolutely everything about everything will not judge properly? I believe He has the right to do that, and I believe He will do it. When every secret ...[text shortened]... ll be thrown into where they will remain outside of the new heaven and earth He is making right now.

You asserting that your God figure "has a right" to do something as morally depraved as mete out the inexplicably violent torture by burning to non-believers for eternity, is NOT a moral argument.

You can't even explain it. You can't even offer a justification, other than offer variations on IT IS WHAT IT IS and IT IS TRUE and WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION IT?

Why would I take such assertions from you as having any moral weight or insight whatsoever?

I hope the rest of your moral compass is assembled and deployed in a more responsible way.

@kellyjay said
Not sure what you are questioning, what doesn't make sense in all of that, just the fact you don't like the idea of Hell, and you and many, if not most you know, could end up there, and you and others are doing your level best to keep it that way?

What is the moral justification for STILL burning non-believers in flames for eternity 300,000,000,000,000 years after they die [and then for eternity after that]? What does it achieve? What deterrent effect does it have if it is kept secret from those still living? What is the point of carrying out the punishment if it didn't succeed in coercing a sentient non-believer while he was alive? If your God figure is supposedly going to reveal himself to non-believers when they die and he starts burning them, why doesn't he reveal himself to non-believers while they are still alive? The whole doctrine is ludicrous, morally speaking.

@fmf said
What is the moral justification for STILL burning non-believers in flames for eternity 300,000,000,000,000 years after they die [and then for eternity after that]? What does it achieve? What deterrent effect does it have if it is kept secret from those still living? What is the point of carrying out the punishment if it didn't succeed in coercing a sentient non-believer while he ...[text shortened]... self to non-believers while they are still alive? The whole doctrine is ludicrous, morally speaking.

What is the moral justification for any punishment for any act of wrongdoing? The length of time or the severity of the punishment has nothing to do with whether it is just or not to condemn sinners for the evil act of their sins. You have no idea of the severity of our crimes before a Holy Eternal God and how He views how we treat each other and the truth.

@kellyjay said
What is the moral justification for any punishment for any act of wrongdoing?

There is deterrence, incapacitation, retribution, rehabilitation, and restitution.

I'd say for all of these purposes [of punishment] the severity of application must be proportional for it to be morally coherent.

This must be clear to humans as moral agents and as the ones who might be punished.

If it's just a case of MY GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS, then one has to conclude that someone asserting such a thing is simply opting out of the moral discussion.

@kellyjay said
The length of time or the severity of the punishment has nothing to do with whether it is just or not to condemn sinners for the evil act of their sins.

Is this your "moral reasoning" in reply to this question: "What is the moral justification for STILL burning non-believers in flames for eternity 300,000,000,000,000 years after they die [and then for eternity after that]?"

@kellyjay said
You have no idea of the severity of our crimes before a Holy Eternal God and how He views how we treat each other and the truth.

What "crimes"? Examples? Tell me what is "the severity" of them?

@fmf said
What "crimes"? Examples? Tell me what is "the severity" of them?

Do you think I could write down words for you to understand and believe? As I said, you have no idea the severity of our crimes, sins, and evil we do to a Holy and Eternal God that He finds committing them worthy of such a punishment. I think the only thing that would come close are things done to our own family and loved ones; when someone with intent does something to them that causes harm to them, or even their memory could enrage us.

God sees every act within His Kindom, His creation, against anyone it in as one of those, Jesus laid down His life for our forgiveness, so He is our judge, what He has done He will either receive the reward for His suffering in taking on our sins by us turning to Him, or we stand before the one who became sin for our salvation which we rejected on top of all of the sins we have done. Falling into the hands of an angry God is not the place to be, He is trying to save us from Himself when He has no choice but to help us the rewards for our sins.

@kellyjay said
Do you think I could write down words for you to understand and believe?

Give it a go. Tell me what is "the severity" of these "crimes" you mentioned.

@kellyjay said
Falling into the hands of an angry God is not the place to be, He is trying to save us from Himself when He has no choice but to help us the rewards for our sins.

List some "crimes" that I might have committed that have "the severity" required to [morally] justify torturing me for eternity?

@fmf said
There is deterrence, incapacitation, retribution, rehabilitation, and restitution.

I'd say for all of these purposes [of punishment] the severity of application must be proportional for it to be morally coherent.

This must be clear to humans as moral agents and as the ones who might be punished.

If it's just a case of MY GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS, then one has to conclude that someone asserting such a thing is simply opting out of the moral discussion.

Well, yes, God can do whatever He wants, which is why the first step towards wisdom is fearing Him. With man, another may intervene when there is a dispute between two of us, but not so with God for none can be delivered out of His hands, so you can mock and deny, when you are face to face there will none to save you after you rejected the salvation He offered.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.