I am a theist

Originally posted by John W Booth
It is sheer vanity to think that speculation about things we cannot know, in any way takes us beyond "limits" in any real sense. It's just a coping mechanism. Witness the extraordinary limits that vishvahetu seems to imprison himself in, in his ceaseless exploration of a "whole host of possibilites". And you and he are basically cut from the same piece of spiritual cloth.

cannot know???, mmm, shall i rephrase that for you Mr. Booth, 'sheer vanity that you think we have no way of knowing'. If i read my ancient texts and i perceive a personality, is it not possible to get to know that personality? if by observing the natural world i perceive justice, power, wisdom, am i not inclined to ask why its inherent? Indeed if i believe there is a God am i not inclined to asks questions like, does he have a purpose etc etc Indeed you have not explained yet why this is limiting, for as beetle constantly points out, what have we to perceive these things by but our own minds. Indeed if i am cut from the same cloth as Vishy then so are you and everyone else in this forum.

Originally posted by John W Booth
And the relevance of this is what exactly?

the relevance of it was, that you disputed the fact, like you dispute whether we can know anything about God, like we can know anything about the afterlife etc etc

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the relevance of it was, that you disputed the fact, like you dispute whether we can know anything about God, like we can know anything about the afterlife etc etc

We don't know anything about the afterlife. We can only speculate. I choose not to. I don't see how or why theism must necessarily manifest itself in speculation about the afterlife. Life is too wonderful and precious, at least from where I am standing, to be wasted on stuff we cannot know - not when there's so much we can know.

Originally posted by John W Booth
We don't know anything about the afterlife. We can only speculate. I choose not to. I don't see how or why theism must necessarily manifest itself in speculation about the afterlife. Life is too wonderful and precious, at least from where I am standing, to be wasted on stuff we cannot know - not when there's so much we can know.

we know that when we die our bodies decompose and that we therefore are conscious of nothing, this frees persons from all kinds of superstition with regard to religious beliefs, fear of damnation, eternal torment etc etc.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
cannot know???, mmm, shall i rephrase that for you Mr. Booth, 'sheer vanity that you think we have no way of knowing'. If i read my ancient texts and i perceive a personality, is it not possible to get to know that personality? if by observing the natural world i perceive justice, power, wisdom, am i not inclined to ask why its inherent? Indeed if ...[text shortened]... lieve there is a God am i not inclined to asks questions like, does he have a purpose etc etc

As I've said all along. Different strokes. Good luck to you if your life needs these religious speculations and "inclinations" in order for you to be able to cope. I just don't see that theism is inextricably linked to the asking of questions. I think it just leads down the track of religion, social control and "theological" conformity. You obviously buy into all that stuff. But you also seem to want to clutter up the definition of theism with all this mundane and speculative stuff. And you mentioned the victims of the Nazi Holocaust in an almost proprietary way on page 2 of this thread and then called be a tosser for disagreeing with you about it. Is this the potency of your beliefs at work?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
we know that when we die our bodies decompose and that we therefore are conscious of nothing, this frees persons from all kinds of superstition with regard to religious beliefs, fear of damnation, eternal torment etc etc.

Damnation and torment? As I've said before, I am not interested in religious concepts. To me, they have little or nothing to do with theism, and everything to do with culture and human weakness.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Remember the Swedes in the volunteer SS divisions, i guess you'd like to forget. Wonder how many Homos and witnesses they put to death? Strange that you seem so adamant to proudly fly their flag? perhaps your relatives were volunteers?

Some did, you're right there, not many but some.
JW all hate homosexuals, not a few, but all.
The don't like to be harassed, but they harass themselves.

Consider sitting in the same camp as homosexuals, that must be hell.

Originally posted by John W Booth
As I've said all along. Different strokes. Good luck to you if your life needs these religious speculations and "inclinations" in order for you to be able to cope. I just don't see that theism is inextricably linked to the asking of questions. I think it just leads down the track of religion, social control and "theological" conformity. You obviously b ...[text shortened]... e a tosser for disagreeing with you about it. Is this the potency of your beliefs at work?

first of all, i must confess that i thought your opening post was a parody, secondly i was indignant at what appeared to me to be a glib and underhanded statement to refer to a point from the holocaust as 'playing the Nazi card', itself a derogatory term, made with reference to a point that has now been made for the third time. I have already explained that my indignation was not an expression of my theism but that i was provoked, you may of course disagree.

These ideas of social conformity are also unfounded (is it ok if i play the conscientious objector card), indeed if my theism is an inducement to social control, why am i prepared to disregard social convention by living a life free of materialism, why, when drafted by the government am i prepared to die rather than kill another human being, if i indeed am so prone, through the application of my theism , to be socially controlled.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Some did, you're right there, not many but some.
JW all hate homosexuals, not a few, but all.
The don't like to be harassed, but they harass themselves.

Consider sitting in the same camp as homosexuals, that must be hell.

how many homosexuals have we locked up in concentration camps Fabian?

Originally posted by John W Booth
Damnation and torment? As I've said before, I am not interested in religious concepts. To me, they have little or nothing to do with theism, and everything to do with culture and human weakness.

yes that is fine, but is my application of a biblical principle (the dead are not conscious) a religious expression or an expression of my theism ? Indeed what is the difference?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how many homosexuals have we locked up in concentration camps Fabian?

You know yourself, you were there, weren't you...?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You know yourself, you were there, weren't you...?

i want you to say it, how many homosexuals have Jehovahs Witnesses incarcerated in concentration camps because of our alleged hatred.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...i was indignant at what appeared to me to be a glib and underhanded statement to refer to a point from the holocaust as 'playing the Nazi card', itself a derogatory term, made with reference to a point that has now been made for the third time. I have already explained that my indignation was not an expression of my theism but that i was provoked, you may of course disagree.

You played the Nazi Card twice, robbie. Not just once. You played it in some kind of weird cyber smackdown way - "smell the toast"??? for what? To "illustrate" what about the afterlife? That people can "transcend death" - meaning what? - and that "tossers" like me don't get it? As I said before, it is one of the most obtuse cases of the Nazi Card being played that I have come across - especially with the "smell the toast", "taste of your own medicine" and the "you tosser" add-ons. You are a piece of work. If you don't want to see the cheapening of the memory and the understanding of the Holocaust, I suggest you resist the temptation to toss it into a debate at the drop of a fatuous hat on page 2 of a discussion that was perfectly civil until that point.

Originally posted by John W Booth
You played the Nazi Card twice, robbie. Not just once. You played it in some kind of weird cyber smackdown way - "smell the toast"??? for what? To "illustrate" what about the afterlife? That people can "transcend death" - meaning what? - and that "tossers" like me don't get it? As I said before, it is one of the most obtuse cases of the Nazi Card being fatuous hat on page 2 of a discussion that was perfectly civil until that point.

calling it 'playing the Nazi card', in itself is what provoked my indignation, firstly it assumes an ulterior motive, in this case a non existent one, secondly it is derogatory in itself, thirdly it diminishes the actual events and the memories of the people who suffered. Had you Mr. Booth admitted that indeed it was distasteful, inappropriate and uncalled for, then that would have been all right and well, now you seek to justify its inclusion on the basis that i was using it to gain some kind of one up man ship when in fact it was made with reference to a point that you raised not me. No regrets! If you want the debate to remain civil then you should act in a civil manner, by not assigning ulterior motives to people and be refraining from using provocative terms.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i want you to say it, how many homosexuals have Jehovahs Witnesses incarcerated in concentration camps because of our alleged hatred.

Listen at your question, don't you think it's a bit stupid, do you?

Whenever I take up the matter of the JW hatred of homosexuals you get defensive and think they are sinners and that they should die (as the bible say) or at least not come to heaven after they die.
When you then take a pride of sitting in the nazi concentration camps together with the jews, not thinking that the homosexuals also sits there. It doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain?

To discriminate others groups but not wanting to be discriminated youreself as a group. I don't get it, I simply don't get it.

And then you imply that my relatives were nazis, oh, that's low, that's very low. Even if it was true, what has that to do with anything? Every (more or less) german had a relative from that time, do you think they should be ashamed? Collectively? Think about your rethorics, robbie, so it doesn't backlash back to yourself.