Obedience vs Disobedience

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So you are going to judge all Christians on the few you know who have hard hearts?

No no, that's why I brought up statistics in my reasoning.

There are good christians, there are bad christians. As there are good non-christians and bad non-christians.

But some christians think that it's within the christian dogma to send all non-christians to hell. Like christians are better people than non-christians.

I'm always critical about people who divide the humanity in 'us, the good people' and 'them, the bad people'. In this thread using the phrase 'people with hard hearts' vs 'people with soft hearts'.

So, my underlaying question is - Are christian people better than others...?

Originally posted by @fabianfnas
No no, that's why I brought up statistics in my reasoning.

There are good christians, there are bad christians. As there are good non-christians and bad non-christians.

But some christians think that it's within the christian dogma to send all non-christians to hell. Like christians are better people than non-christians.

I'm always critical abo ...[text shortened]... th soft hearts'.

So, my underlaying question is - Are christian people better than others...?

'Good' or 'better' according to whose standard? According to the Bible only God is good.

Originally posted by @fabianfnas
The only thing I really care about is if it is doing its job, like pumping blood, as it should.
It is as soft as it should be, and as soft as it should be.
Obeying or not obeying doesn't change its biological function at all.

The only thing I really care about is if it is doing its job, like pumping blood, as it should.
It is as soft as it should be, and as soft as it should be.
Obeying or not obeying doesn't change its biological function at all.

Hmmm.

Well you see it is not only Christians who acknowledge that along with a physical heart there is a non-material part of our being which many people refer to as our heart.

Would you be happy to be in a vegetative state psychologically just as long as your physical heart was pumping blood ?

If your answer is "Yes". Then I guess you won that argument.
But if your answer is "No" or at least "I don't think so" then maybe you're on your way to understanding the "heart" which is non-physical, yet vital.

In the Bible the "heart" in the non-physical sense means some things specific.
The heart in the Bible is composed of:

the mind
the emotion
the will
the conscience

The mind, the emotion, the will and the conscience compose the biblical heart.

Softening or hardening the non-material heart in a biblical sense then has to do with the condition of any one or number of or all of the parts.

Fabian,

The only thing I really care about is if it is doing its job, like pumping blood, as it should. It is as soft as it should be, and as soft as it should be.
Obeying or not obeying doesn't change its biological function at all.

One of my favorite novels as a young person was H.G. Well's The Time Machine.
In the end the friend of the time traveler muses over the strange flower that Weena, a distant future woman, gave to the time traveler, his only artifact brought back from over a hundred thousand years in the future. The narrator (the friend of the time traveler) says that that gift proved to him that though the future of humanity, as tragically described by the time traveler, will be bleak and nightmarish, that flower proved that some worthy human virtues "still lived on in the heart of man."

H.G. Wells was no evangelical Christian. But he understood that there was a psychological and/or spiritual "heart of man". Its safe for you to join him in believing we can call some non-material seat of human virtues a "heart of man".

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The way I see it obedience is a choice. Disobedience is also a choice. When we obey God it 'softens' our hearts and we can then hear his voice more clearly. Each time we disobey God it can 'harden' our hearts. If we continually harden our hearts God can eventually harden them fully as he did with Pharoah. Hence obedience is very important.

The act of softening our hearts is done how? What takes place during the time that
someone turns their lives over to Jesus Christ? What does God give us that changes us,
that He only gives to those that belong to Him? More to the point, how does one know
when one is obeying God? There are several here to claim to be followers that are harsh,
is it just being able to make a claim, or does God have to play a part?

You people behave as you decide to. Own it. You are good or bad, as you choose. If you need authority to tell you right from wrong, then you are the problem. A malleable entity under the control of others.

Originally posted by @sonship
Fabian,
One of my favorite novels as a young person was H.G. Well's [b]The Time Machine.
In the end the in him in believing we can call some non-material seat of human virtues a "heart of man".[/b]

You say that the heart contains more than the ability to pump blood through our veins?
You say that christians have another kind of heart than non-christians?
You say, and I say not.

Does even the kidneys has a spiritual function? The knee cap? The prostate?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The act of softening our hearts is done how? What takes place during the time that
someone turns their lives over to Jesus Christ? What does God give us that changes us,
that He only gives to those that belong to Him? More to the point, how does one know
when one is obeying God? There are several here to claim to be followers that are harsh,
is it just being able to make a claim, or does God have to play a part?

Ezekiel 36:26

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

This is the work of God. What do you think?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
This is the work of God. What do you think?

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Originally posted by @apathist
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Acts 2:18 Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Ezekiel 36:26

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

This is the work of God. What do you think?

Yes, God is either at work in us or not. We can mouth we are walking with the Lord, but
unless the Lord is doing to the work we are still lost.

Originally posted by @fabianfnas

You say that the heart contains more than the ability to pump blood through our veins?
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No I didn't.
I said that there is a non-material heart.
I wrote:

Well you see it is not only Christians who acknowledge that along with a physical heart there is a non-material part of our being which many people refer to as our heart.

You say that christians have another kind of heart than non-christians?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, that is not an accurate portrayal of what I said.
I wrote:

Well you see it is not only Christians who acknowledge that along with a physical heart there is a non-material part of our being which many people refer to as our heart.

1.) To represent me claiming that only Christians possess such a non-material heart is inaccurate of you. I would like to think your misrepresentation is not deliberate and deceptive.

2.) I said that others besides Christians hold a similar belief in a non-material heart.
The example I provided was H.G. Wells who was a strong believer in Darwinism.

You say, and I say not.
-----------------------------------
Make sure that you honestly represent what I DID say before you claim to be saying the opposite.

And I take your silence on the matter on the question of being in a vegetative state otherwise to a perfectly functioning PHYSICAL heart to indicate that you do notice that something would be missing with your quality of life.

I asked -

Would you be happy to be in a vegetative state psychologically just as long as your physical heart was pumping blood ?

I propose that that missing something involves what theists and non-theists well might call your other heart.


Does even the kidneys has a spiritual function? The knee cap? The prostate?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are misrepresenting what I said still.
I did not say your physical heart has a spiritual function.
There is no need to portray me that the kidneys or kneecaps also perform a spiritual function.

Could your next reply contain fewer strawman arguments ?

It seems Fabian is on a semantic game as a defense.

Folks how MANY love songs have you heard in your life which say something about a heart ?
i.e.
Broken heart
Stole my heart
Our hearts
My heart
"The heart is a lonely hunter"
He or she broke my heart ...
etc. etc.

DId you think these were all theists writing these songs?
Did you think they were talking about the physical blood pomping organ?

Originally posted by @sonship
It seems Fabian is on a semantic game as a defense.

Folks how MANY love songs have you heard in your life which say something about a [b]heart ?
i.e.
Broken heart
Stole my heart
Our hearts
My heart
"The heart is a lonely hunter"
He or she broke my heart ...
etc. etc.

DId you think these were all theists writing these songs?
Did you think they were talking about the physical blood pomping organ?[/b]

Let's skip that discussion and go back to the other one - do christians have softer hearts and non-christians have harder hearts?

Originally posted by @fabianfnas
Let's skip that discussion and go back to the other one - do christians have softer hearts and non-christians have harder hearts?

Concerning Christ being the Son of God, the Lord and Savior, I think the heart of the believer has been softened.

The question is is that ALL the softening they need?
Is it only God's purpose that people believe in the Son of God ?
Does He want nothing ELSE of the heart of people.

When it says Christ make home in our hearts it certainly implies deepening and further penetration.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph.3:17)

In my experience this entails opening up more and more the heart.
This entails receiving by faith Christ to be more and more your own personality.

IE

"Lord Jesus, soften my heart to be my memory and rememberance.
Lord Jesus, come into my imagination and regulate my dreaming.
Lord Jesus, please come into my will more. Lord be the One in me deciding.
Lord Jesus, I open more of my heart to you now that I have been saved for a year. "

In this way "through faith" the FAITHFUL Jesus Christ migrates into more and more and more of your heart. And you become transformed gradually more into the image of this Jesus.

If Christ is not FAITHFUL then this kind of praying means little.
But He is FAITHFUL.
And together we can cause the living Jesus to make His HOME in our heart.

The Christian's heart towards the initial matter of Christ being Lord and Savior is softer than the unbeliever. But the softening of the heart must go on.

Do you understand me now?