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    16 Dec '12 18:191 edit
    Came across the following article where the author describes his struggles with understanding "what exactly is a ‘personal relationship with Jesus.’?". I found the section in BOLD particularly interesting. Comments?

    The problem I had was that I felt more and more that the ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ was more ‘personal’ than ‘Jesus’. As I grew older and got a wider experience of Evangelical Christianity it all seemed rather sentimental and subjective. Not only were the different denominations idea of the personal relationship different, but every individual’s personal relationship seemed as different as could be, and I naturally began to suspect that much of the , ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ consisted of sincere, but subjective emotions, and that the Jesus people had a personal relationship was often more of a reflection of their own inner desires, their own personality, their religious preferences and what they had been taught about Jesus than anything else.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2008/03/personal-relationship-with-jesus.html
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    17 Dec '12 06:31
    Ah, now we're getting warmer.
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    17 Dec '12 09:08
    Ever read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis?
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Dec '12 11:35
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Came across the following article where the author describes his struggles with understanding "what exactly is a ‘personal relationship with Jesus.’?". I found the section in BOLD particularly interesting. Comments?

    The problem I had was that I felt more and more that the ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ was more ‘personal’ than ‘Jesus’. As I ...[text shortened]... /www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2008/03/personal-relationship-with-jesus.html
    Each relationship is different due to the fact you have different people in each
    one. My relationships with my family members are all different even though
    I'm a constant in them. You find it strange that is true with Jesus Christ too?
    You think He should overwhelm each of us so that all the relationships are the
    same?
    Kelly
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    17 Dec '12 11:57
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Ever read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis?
    No, why do you ask?
  6. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    17 Dec '12 12:041 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

    No, why do you ask?
    Small book, well written and worth your time....

    YouTube

    YouTube

    -
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    17 Dec '12 12:13
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Each relationship is different due to the fact you have different people in each
    one. My relationships with my family members are all different even though
    I'm a constant in them. You find it strange that is true with Jesus Christ too?
    You think He should overwhelm each of us so that all the relationships are the
    same?
    Kelly
    Seems like the author wasn't just saying that the relationships are different...

    Not only were the different denominations idea of the personal relationship different, but every individual’s personal relationship seemed as different as could be, and I naturally began to suspect that much of the , ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ consisted of sincere, but subjective emotions, and that the Jesus people had a personal relationship was often more of a reflection of their own inner desires, their own personality, their religious preferences and what they had been taught about Jesus than anything else.


    You should also consider the following:
    John 17:20-23
    "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."


    Jesus speaks of His followers being "one" with each other, with God and with Himself. Are you "perfected in unity" with your family members?
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    17 Dec '12 12:21
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Small book, well written and worth your time....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxJwSIIqQrU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deJNpKVxJp8

    -
    I'm not completely unfamiliar with Lewis. I haven't found what excerpts I've read of his writings to be particularly well thought out nor at all compelling. Can you provide some excerpts from 'Mere Christianity' that you believe are?
  9. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    17 Dec '12 12:36
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I'm not completely unfamiliar with Lewis. I haven't found what excerpts I've read of his writings to be particularly well thought out nor at all compelling. Can you provide some excerpts from 'Mere Christianity' that you believe are?
    Already contained in the two Youtube links already provided. Thanks.
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    17 Dec '12 13:072 edits
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Already contained in the two Youtube links already provided. Thanks.
    I had started listening to the first which seemed to start from the beginning and couldn't see listening to it all to see if there are any nuggets. If you have some written excerpts that you think particularly well thought out and compelling, then by all means provide them. If you don't think it worth your time to do that, why should I think it's worth my time time to read the book?
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Dec '12 15:01
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Seems like the author wasn't just saying that the relationships are different...

    [quote]Not only were the different denominations idea of the personal relationship different, but every individual’s personal relationship seemed as different as could be, and I naturally began to suspect that much of the , ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ consisted of s ...[text shortened]... other, with God and with Himself. Are you "perfected in unity" with your family members?
    What are you suggesting being one means, that we should be over whelmed
    and God should take over everything there is that makes us, us?
    Kelly
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Dec '12 15:24
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Each relationship is different due to the fact you have different people in each one. My relationships with my family members are all different even though I'm a constant in them. You find it strange that is true with Jesus Christ too? You think He should overwhelm each of us so that all the relationships are the same?
    And yet not so long ago you were insisting that I could never have been a 'true Christian' because my relationship with him was not the same as yours.
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    17 Dec '12 16:06
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Small book, well written and worth your time....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxJwSIIqQrU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deJNpKVxJp8

    -
    I think it is important to note that in the preface to his book The Problem of Pain which deals with the same basic issue as the problem of evil, C.S. Lewis comments that one has to approach such studies with faith in hand, not with disbelief in hand. I think a non-believer (like me) should realize that such books are not where you go to find faith you don't have, but rather are where to go to explore faith you do have.
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    17 Dec '12 18:031 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    What are you suggesting being one means, that we should be over whelmed
    and God should take over everything there is that makes us, us?
    Kelly
    The point was that in the author's experience "... the Jesus people had a personal relationship was often more of a reflection of their own inner desires, their own personality, their religious preferences and what they had been taught about Jesus than anything else." In other words, each had his own "Jesus" made in his own image. This indicates that the concept of a "personal relationship with Jesus" was being used to prop up the self-image of each.

    If those claiming a "personal relationship with Jesus" were "one" with Jesus, this would not be the case.

    Your example of your relationships with your family members is something very different from what Jesus was describing.
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    17 Dec '12 19:184 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Seems like the author wasn't just saying that the relationships are different...

    [quote]Not only were the different denominations idea of the personal relationship different, but every individual’s personal relationship seemed as different as could be, and I naturally began to suspect that much of the , ‘personal relationship with Jesus’ consisted of s other, with God and with Himself. Are you "perfected in unity" with your family members?
    That they may be perfected. That's what it says. As it is an ongoing process.
    We Christians are in the process of BEING perfected into one as John 17 says.

    "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one,..." (John 17:22a

    The New Testament also says "... until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith ..." (Eph. 4).
    Implying that we do not necessarily all arrive at the same time.

    Yes, there is a perfecting into oneness as the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and the Son is in us. Yes it is happening under your nose.

    - jaywill
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