-Removed-Your inability to agree with what I'm proposing is driven from your stubbornness to admit that you could be wrong.
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Eternal damnation is horrific. There is no disagreement there.
You haven't demonstrated that Jesus' words mean something else in this realm.
You have to blame Christ for the teaching of Matthew 25:32-46.
You have to blame Christ for the teaching of Matthew 10:28
You have to blame Christ for the teaching of Matt. 9:48 as he quoted and applied the words of the prophet Isaiah to His gospel.
And yes you would also have to blame Christ for his apostle writing Revelation 14 and 20. In fact you would have to blame Jesus Christ for the whole Bible.
So the tissue of twists and flips that you present here in desperation to present some alternative understanding of eternal perdition, is inadequate to spin the horror out of God's judgment of the forever lost.
You can appeal to our emotions mightily. But the same mouth that spoke the most gracious words of God's forgiveness ALSO spoke the most fearful words of His absolute vengeance upon sin and unbelief.
And my experience is that "air conditioning" hell doesn't really incline the sinner more towards belief in the Gospel. And I would wager most of the hard core atheists looking on while you spin a kinder gentler eternal separation from God are probably bemused.
I don't think it causes people to respect God more when they see you doing what you do. But give it your best shot if you want. It is before the Lord Himself you will give an account.
I think a holistic portrayal of God in both His great kindness and great severity is consistent with what the Bible teaches. Pounding ONLY one aspect to the negation of the other is not truthful.
Paul told his co-worker to keep the teaching without partiality.
" I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." ( 1 Timothy 5:21)
So I will continue to labor to be without partiality. When I need to speak of God's love, I will emphasize that. When I need to speak of God's judgment, I will be faithful to do that.
I don't need to admit that I am wrong, because my salvation is not at stake through me believing what I believe, also I hold the higher moral ground in believing what I believe, and thirdly I do not generate gasps of appalling disgust from non Christians because of what I believe.
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Maybe you just care more about man's approval.
Your salvation may not be at stake. But your reward may be if you are ashamed of the Lord and His words.
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)
Your eternal redemption may not be in danger at all. But the reward you receive during the thousand year kingdom immediately commencing from the return of Christ may be lost because you are "ashamed" of the words of Jesus. And because of this shame you teach with partiality the word of God.
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-Removed-No not "any" explaination is better. What Christ taught and meant is best. You are apparently lacking in enthusiasm or skill to present that if I'm so off.
Now if you don't have anything else to say on this besides "More Moral Than Thou" I'm not learning much here from you.
If I want to find some Annhilationist or Universalist viewpoints on those passages, I know where I can find some.
Originally posted by sonshipBut, as you have stated before, if people think eternal punishment is unjust then they must discard the Bible, right? That is your suggestion, as you have stated it on this forum.
No not "any" explaination is better. What Christ taught and meant is best. You are apparently lacking in enthusiasm or skill to present that if I'm so off.
Now if you don't have anything else to say on this besides "More Moral Than Thou" I'm not learning much here from you.
If I want to find some Annhilationist or Universalist viewpoints on those passages, I know where I can find some.
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Originally posted by FMFQuote please ?
But, as you have stated before, if people think eternal punishment is unjust then they must discard the Bible, right? That is your suggestion, as you have stated it on this forum.
I don't remember and you may have misunderstood something I wrote.
I don't remember. I am not saying I never said it.
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The problem I have with Annhilationists and Universalists is that even giving ample ground to possible symbolism rather than fire, the teaching of eternal judgment is not made more pleasant.
So someone argues that you cannot burn with fire forever and that this must be symbolic. The teaching of eternal retribution is still forever and unpleasant.
Arguing over the temperature of fire and the combustibility of angel bodies or human bodies do nothing for the overall dread of being eternally under God's anger.
A de-allegorized lake of fire is no better that a hyper literal one.
So I don't waste too much time on debating about the science of it.
Abiding under the wrath of God cannot be made to sound better.
And something non-existent cannot have the wrath of God abiding upon it. Nothing abides upon something that doesn't exist.
"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (John 3:36)
Granted, Revelation does indeed say that the things revealed in it are made known by signs (Rev. 1:1).
Spiritualizing not having one's name in the book of life is still something we should all want to be saved from. The wrath of God will abide on the unreconciled.
The appropriate response to God's angry judgment should be fear. This is quite deliberately stated in the New Testament. It is not the only thing the New Testament teaches. But it is also certainly taught along with many other more pleasing things to hear.
" And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and AFTERWARD ... have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you WHOM YOU SHOULD FEAR: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One."
Among the four Gospels, Luke is probably the most pleasing and well received. Here the evangelist's burden is to portray the Son of God as a Man full of kind sentiments of a wonderful human being. Jesus calls us all "My friends".
But He warns of an authority that reaches further than human authority. We do not want to be on the wrong side of that ultimate authority.
Having said that, I have always like Psalm 103 where we are told that this great authority of God also comes with pity as a father for his children, who fear Him.
" For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness upon those who fear Him.
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
As compassionate as a father is toward his children, So compassionate is Jehovah toward those who fear Him.
For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. ... But Jehovah's lovingkindness is from eternity unto eternity upon those who fear Him, And His righteousness is to the children's children; To those who keep His covenant and remember His precepts so as to do them." (See Psalm 103:11-18)
The main precept today is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the crucified and resurrected Son of God.
God spoke both matters. He spoke of His severity and His kindness. He spoke of His kindness and His severity. And I think we should believe BOTH matters.
Originally posted by sonshipThe exact quote is: "So if eternal punishment is unjust then we must discard the Bible; for the Bible teaches eternal punishment.
Quote please ?
I don't remember and you may have misunderstood something I wrote.
I don't remember. I am not saying I never said it.
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-Removed-Well go off and sulk if you like sonship,
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You have a good imagination.
Comes in handy in debates?
but here's the thing; if you can't see that believing that God in his absolute sovereignty, has chosen to establish a creation wherein he decides to create and maintain a place where billions of people who reject him will be supernaturally kept alive and burnt by himself, in the presence of Jesus himself for all eternity... is an apocalyptic moral abomination... then, and I say this hand on heart, I have to tell you that there is nothing else worth teaching you.
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And with the same hand over your heart, aside from your lawyer like special effects appeal to sway the jury, you teach that Jesus Christ was absolutely wrong to teach of eternal punishment. Sounds like the one slinking away in a sulk is you.