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Originally posted by FMFIt is morally incoherent, sonship. All you've got, at the very heart of this supernatural regime that you imagine, is 'might is right'. It is crude and preposterous and demented.
[b] abominable morally
Eternal punishment is terrible. It is the complete defeat forever of the irreconcilable rebels against God who are so completely vanquished, that the very thought of unrepentant breaking of His law and opposing Him is too terrible to contemplate.
So we thank God for all He did in Christ that we may be saved.
In eternity fut ...[text shortened]... natural regime that you imagine, is 'might is right'. It is crude and preposterous and demented.
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This "might makes right" includes God becoming a man with the might and right to take away in potential the sin of the world, all time, all people, upon Himself under the judgment of God.
This "might makes right" includes God in Christ taking the condemnation of the world up in His own body to the cross on behalf of the sinners He loved.
Originally posted by sonshipAnd do people who simply ~ honestly and sincerely ~ do not believe the things you happen to believe [you label them "Enemies of God"] also, in your view, get punished for eternity?
Enemies of God, for whom He died in love, setting themselves up in an eternal collision course with God, will know eternally His just punishment of their sins.
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Originally posted by sonshipThis "might makes right" includes God becoming a man with the might and right to take away in potential the sin of the world, all time, all people, upon Himself under the judgment of God.
This "might makes right" includes God in Christ taking the condemnation of the world up in His own body to the cross on behalf of the sinners He loved.
And how does this justify torturing people [who do not believe any of it] for eternity?
It doesn't make any sense, sonship. Wouldn't their suffering in agony for eternity as a punishment for their non-belief be a far greater sacrifice in the name of their honest beliefs than a crucifixion that lasted a few hours?
Originally posted by FMFBUMP for sonship.
I'm interested in what you believe now. If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, must they discard the rest of the Bible too? Yes or no? I'm talking about your current belief.
I'm interested in what you believe now. If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, must they discard the rest of the Bible too? Yes or no? I'm talking about your current belief.
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Does anyone know what it meant to Christ to have to say God had forsaken Him?
" And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me? " (Matt. 27:46)
I don't care if He hung on the cross six hours by our time and three of these were in being forsaken by the One with Whom he had eternal fellowship with.
I don't claim to fully understand it. I don't claim to be able to measure the agony of the Son of God. I don't even claim to know what it meant for Christ to offer Himself to God through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14) as to what that meant to Him.
Arguments trying to compare eternal punishment as outweighing Christ's suffering therefore don't move me. I am rather sure that it will take eternity to appreciate Who that was who suffered and died for us and what it meant to God.
Many people were tortured or suffered in history. Only One offered Himself to God through the eternal Spirit. Evidently there is no limit on the value God puts on that suffering and death. Therefore arguments like - " But Jesus only was on the cross for six hours as compared to endless punishment " don't move me to count God as unjust.
I don't know what it means for Him to be judged by God for the sins of all the world for all time.
Originally posted by sonshipWhy would it "move" you ~ or why would you admit it "moved" you ~ when you are personally propagating such an incoherent and grotesque ideology? The undisputed fact that "trying to compare eternal punishment as outweighing Christ's suffering" does not "move" you is not evidence of anything.
Arguments trying to compare eternal punishment as outweighing Christ's suffering therefore don't move me.
Originally posted by sonshipGood grief, sonship. Your take on what constitutes "perfect justice" is no secret. Nobody is claiming that you DO "count God as unjust". That isn't the issue. Instead, the issue is: how is you simply asserting that you are not personally moved "to count God as unjust" in light of your own ideology... how is this assertion supposed ~ in and of itself ~ to persuade anyone that your perception of "perfect justice" has any validity?
Therefore arguments like - " But Jesus only was on the cross for six hours as compared to endless punishment " don't move me to count God as unjust.
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Originally posted by FMFWhy would it "move" you ~ or why would you admit it "moved" you ~ when you are personally propagating such an incoherent and grotesque ideology?
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Your criticism doesn't move me to speak contrary to the Bible. ~
The undisputed fact that "trying to compare eternal punishment as outweighing Christ's suffering" does not "move" you is not evidence of anything.
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As for the most persuasive evidence that Jesus spoke the truth was God's raising Him from the dead.
This was a vindication that He really was the Son of God in whom the Father was well pleased. That would include well pleased in all that He taught.
Yours and Divegeester's ethical arguments may be eloquent. But resurrection of Christ is a sure seal, a stamp of Divine approval of what Christ lived and spoke.
The next person to offer any parallel demonstration that he should be believed over Christ, (by being resuscitated after having a mortal wound,) is the Antichrist. And we know what is going to happen to him.
Originally posted by FMF[b]Good grief, sonship. Your take on what constitutes "perfect justice" is no secret. Nobody is claiming that you DO "count God as unjust". That isn't the issue. Instead, the issue is: how is you simply asserting that you are not personally moved "to count God as unjust" in light of your own ideology... how is this assertion supposed ~ in and of itself ~ to persuade anyone that your perception of "perfect justice" has any validity?
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Good grief Charlie Brown. I think you're trying to change the issue.
As I see it the issue is that eternal perdition cannot be true because man doesn't like it so much.
I certainly don't like it. But I don't argue it is not true because of that.
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Going in circles on this is not desireable.
Other aspects I will respond to.
Could I be mistaken in my understanding of the lake of fire ?
Answer: Yes.
So far some able expositors have not persuaded me of annihilation or universalism though.
To the question of do I encourage people who find eternal damnation unjust of God to discard the Bible?
My guess is that the sentence spliced in which I said that was a little hyperbolic and specific to a Bible student. Some people have already discarded the Bible here and don't need me to advise them to.
Anyway, Do I still say anyone should discard the Bible and not read it any longer? I guess so, but not too fast.
I don't expect any human being to agree with everything in the Bible early on or even after many years. So for people like FMF who seem to be on the edge of their chairs for my recommendation of discarding their Bibles - wait until the last possible moment.
-Removed-I can see why the lost find what you peddle disgusting.
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Vomit, it might make you feel better.
In the meantime I notice it stills says -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)