Originally posted by sonshipPutting what you've said in the past on this matter aside for the moment, why not say what you believe today? If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, what must they do with the rest of what's in the Bible? Discard it or not?
Thanks.
Since you went that far, how about the entire post or reference so I can see the context?
Originally posted by FMFThat's why I wanted to see the context, in order to compare it with what I believe today. I want to see how I said it yesterday.
Why not say what you believe today? If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, what must they do with the rest of what's in the Bible? Discard it or not?
So where's that post?
Originally posted by sonshipI'm interested in what you believe now. If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, must they discard the rest of the Bible too? Yes or no? I'm talking about your current belief.
That's why I wanted to see the context, in order to compare it with what I believe today. I want to see how I said it yesterday.
So where's that post?
Originally posted by FMFShow me the whole post or link me to it and I'll tell you how I think about that sentence today.
I'm interested in what you believe now. If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, must they discard the rest of the Bible too? Yes or no? I'm talking about your current belief.
In the meantime I am going to briefly speak to this list of charges.
There is no way you can cut it sonship, your interpretation of eternal suffering is, even from a theist perspective, illogical, absurd, horrifically unjust, psychotic in design and abominable morally.
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Originally posted by sonshipI am talking about your current belief. You either have a view on whether accepting the notion of "eternal punishment" as being just or not is a deal breaker when it comes to the entire Bible or you don't have a view. Why wouldn't you simply want to state your current view on this here and now?
Show me the whole post or link me to it and I'll tell you how I think about that sentence today.
Originally posted by FMFOne is free to believe any portion or discard any portion of the Holy Bible they choose. However, the point is that to avoid being a hypocritical Christian one must believe all Christ taught in scripture.
I'm interested in what you believe now. If someone believes that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust, must they discard the rest of the Bible too? Yes or no? I'm talking about your current belief.
Originally posted by RJHindsThe question sonship is refusing to answer is whether the rest of the Bible must be discarded by a person if they believe that the notion of "eternal punishment" is unjust.
One is free to believe any portion or discard any portion of the Holy Bible they choose. However, the point is that to avoid being a hypocritical Christian one must believe all Christ taught in scripture.
There is no way you can cut it sonship, your interpretation of eternal suffering is, even from a theist perspective, illogical, absurd, horrifically unjust, psychotic in design and abominable morally.
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Let's "cut it" straight according to the Scripture as we are exhorted to teach. So from a Christian Theist's perspective:
1.) illogical
The logic of Revelation 20:10 is that after the beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire, the Devil is cast there also. And THEY - plural ... will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and he false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Logically, if after 1,000 years they are still being punished and "they" plural - will continue to be so forever, the "illogic" is to interpret otherwise.
This is brief.
2.) absurd
The opening statement of the Bible is that God created time, space, matter, ie. the universe. That God has both the power and the authority to punish forever is not absurd.
Rather that God published warnings of His authority and power to judge sin but would not follow through, as though He lied, is absurd.
That to save man from something meant so much to the Son of God that being righteous and innocent He bore up under the wrath of God's judgment proves that He took the prospect of our condemnation seriously. He hardly indicates it was absurd to Him.
Did He pray to His Father so intensely that drops of blood came out of His sweat suggest that He considered our being condemned a an absurdity? I don't think so.
3.) horrifically unjust
This requires more space then I give it here. But "cutting it straight" as the New Testament exhorts, the praises to God in the hottest moment of God's outpoured wrath is the His judgments are just.
" And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel who had power over the waters saying,
You are righteous, who is and who was, the Holy One, because You have judged these things ... And I heard the altar saying, Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments." (See Rev. 16:4-7)
"And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all he nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (15:3,4)
"After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.
For true and righteous are His judgments; For He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah!
And her smoke goes up forever and ever." ( 19:1-3)
The biblical data is that it would be unjust for God not to have His absolute and total everlasting defeat of His enemies.
God in Christ died for them while they were enemies to reconcile them to God. But they unbelieving and unrepentant.
"But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath.
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled ..." (Romans 5:8-11)
Enemies of God, for whom He died in love, setting themselves up in an eternal collision course with God, will know eternally His just punishment of their sins.
It probably is that continued sinning will ever call forth continual punishment.
4.) psychotic in design
God's mind is infinitely clear, infinitely soberminded, infinitely healthy.
The very far reaching expanse and nature of the universe in both its macro and micro aspect testifies that His mind most knowledgeable, most wise.
Jesus Christ was the Word become flesh - God incarnate. I think those who accuse Him of being psychotic are deceived.
God does say that to the perverse He will show Himself contrary:
" With the pure You show yourself pure, And with the perverse You show Yourself contrary." (Psalm 18:26)
5.) abominable morally
Eternal punishment is terrible. It is the complete defeat forever of the irreconcilable rebels against God who are so completely vanquished, that the very thought of unrepentant breaking of His law and opposing Him is too terrible to contemplate.
So we thank God for all He did in Christ that we may be saved.
In eternity future there will never be another Satan and his angels and horde of unbelievers following their leader to dethrone the Almighty.
Originally posted by sonshipabominable morally
Eternal punishment is terrible. It is the complete defeat forever of the irreconcilable rebels against God who are so completely vanquished, that the very thought of unrepentant breaking of His law and opposing Him is too terrible to contemplate.
So we thank God for all He did in Christ that we may be saved.
In eternity future there will never be another Satan and his angels and horde of unbelievers following their leader to dethrone the Almighty.
It is morally incoherent, sonship. All you've got, at the very heart of this supernatural regime that you imagine, is 'might is right'. It is crude and preposterous and demented.