Spirituality
19 Nov 10
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd answered over and over again by other scriptures. Not all have the same gifts: some are good at knocking on doors, handing out tracts, etc. Some are better with holding bake sales, rummage sales, working soup kitchens, and so on. We are NOT expected to go 'round ringin' doorbells and asking the occupants if they are saved or not.
an excellent question!
23 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydwe most definitely are required to preach the good news of Gods Kingdom in imitation of Christ, where you get the idea that we are not, i have no idea, perhaps you can point it out in scripture. I suppose you statement asking people if 'they are saved', really says it all. I doubt you've ever engaged in a public ministry, for if you had, you wouldn't have uttered it. The theme of Christ's teaching was Gods Kingdom! Gods heavenly government as the King James Bible refers to it as!
And answered over and over again by other scriptures. Not all have the same gifts: some are good at knocking on doors, handing out tracts, etc. Some are better with holding bake sales, rummage sales, working soup kitchens, and so on. We are NOT expected to go 'round ringin' doorbells and asking the occupants if they are saved or not.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by PinkFloydsorry i fail to find any mention of rummage sales, soup kitchens, baking sales in scripture, perhaps you might like to point them out.
And answered over and over again by other scriptures. Not all have the same gifts: some are good at knocking on doors, handing out tracts, etc. Some are better with holding bake sales, rummage sales, working soup kitchens, and so on. We are NOT expected to go 'round ringin' doorbells and asking the occupants if they are saved or not.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by divegeesterI want to bring out this one verse for dear Deucer if I can. Verse 12 where it mentions both Jews and Greeks being saved. He insist that if the 144,000 number is to be taken seriously then only Jews can be a part of the 144,000. Verse 12 here differs with that logic. Other scriptures also point that out.
In the Bible Jesus refers to it as being "born again" (spiritual re-birth or regeneration). Access to this is through faith expressing itself in identification with the "Author of [that] faith":
Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart.” This is the message about faith that we are proclaimin ...[text shortened]... all who call on him.
13“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [Jesus] will be saved.”
It's open to all and always has been, if they qualify.
Excuse the paste but it's important info on this subject.....
The Bible’s Viewpoint:
Who Are “Born Again”?
"NICODEMUS was a member of the Jewish high court, a scholar in religious law, and he had seen enough evidence of Jesus’ miracles to convince himself that Jesus was the Messiah. Yet, he could not understand what Jesus meant by the statement: “Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”—John 3:1-3, 10.
“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?”—John 3:4.
Millions of people today profess to be “born again” and claim to understand clearly what this means. Others, like Nicodemus, are puzzled with the whole concept of being born again. Since Jesus Christ made the point that this was a prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of God, it is vital that we do understand what he meant by being “born again.”
In response to Nicodemus’ question, Jesus further said: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. Do not marvel because I told you, You people must be born again.”—John 3:5-7.
Difficult to grasp? Jesus knew that understanding spiritual truths is not easy. So in order to make things clearer, he used an illustration about the wind. “The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.” (John 3:8) Nicodemus could hear, feel, and see the effects of the wind, but he could not understand its source or its final destination. Yet, the reality of the wind was beyond question. Similarly, those who lack spiritual insight would find it difficult to grasp how Jehovah, by means of his spirit, could cause a person to be born again and what the ultimate destiny of such a one would be. However, with the help of inspired Bible writers, we can comprehend such matters.—John 16:13.
Clearing Up the Puzzle
What did Jesus have in mind when he spoke about being “born from water and spirit”? Birth means beginning. A new birth means a new beginning. In the case of Jesus’ disciples, their first step toward being born again began once they repented of their sins, turned away from a wrong course, and were baptized in water. Starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., in response to such action, Jehovah gave them what Peter referred to as “a new birth to a living hope . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1 Peter 1:3, 4; 3:21) Jehovah’s holy spirit implanted in them a conviction that they would eventually live with Jesus Christ in heaven. This gave them a whole new outlook on life—a new beginning.
Was this simply an emotional religious experience? No. God’s holy spirit made them into something entirely new, “a new creation.” (2 Corinthians 5:17) When they were first born as humans, they were sinful children of Adam, inheriting all the imperfection that he passed on to his descendants. Now, upon being “born again,” these disciples obtained a clean standing before God. How? The merits of Jesus’ sacrifice were applied in their behalf. Thereby, God viewed them as righteous even while they were still imperfect humans. (Romans 3:25, 26; 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 6:11) More than that, Jehovah now recognized them as his sons. The apostle Paul shows how: “For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons . . . God’s children.” (Romans 8:14, 16) They were now accepted as part of God’s heavenly family.
And there was more. Paul explains again: “If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:17) These spiritual sons of God now had the prospect of inheriting what Christ Jesus was going to inherit—kingly power in heaven. Jesus revealed to the apostle John the number of persons who would be corulers with him over the earth—144,000. (Revelation 7:4; 14:1-3) Then he went on to show John that these favored disciples “will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”—Revelation 20:6.
Benefits to Others
Does this mean then that in order to gain God’s favor, everyone must be “born again”? Not at all. Jesus’ sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 persons who have been specially chosen to be with him in the heavens. When the apostle John wrote to “born again” Christians toward the end of the first century, he said regarding the sacrifice of Jesus: “He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” (1 John 2:2) How is this so?
In this way. Those who are “born again” will rule with Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom to bring benefits to others of mankind who will live on earth. This was foretold in a remarkable promise made to Jesus’ forefather Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. “By means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves,” Jehovah told Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) Yes, great blessings were to be made available to all nations through Abraham’s “seed”!
Who was that “seed”? Jesus Christ, joined by his genuine “born again” followers. The apostle Paul explains: “Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed.” (Galatians 3:16, 29) And what are the blessings that come to people of all nations through Jesus Christ and these “born again” disciples? The privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying all his provisions for a paradise earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18.
So the 144,000 “born again” disciples will “enter into the [heavenly] kingdom of God” to administer the marvelous blessings that God’s Kingdom will bring to untold millions right here on the earth. (Matthew 6:10; Romans 8:19-21; Revelation 21:1-5) Whether Nicodemus ever understood Jesus’ words and was “born again” to become part of this ruling body, we do not know. What we do know is that the opportunity to receive the benefits of their heavenly rulership is there for anyone who wishes to avail himself of it."
Jesus only spoke of ( 2 ) groups of people gaining life, no more. He spoke of the "Little Flock" and the "Great Crowd".
The Little Flock would become co rulers with Jesus in heaven, the ones that were "Born Again" and the Great Crowd who would be the ones to survive Armeggedon.
There is never any mention at all by Jesus of another 3rd group of humans in general going to heaven after death.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by PalynkaYou can believe in anything, that does not mean you hold it dear to your
I never understood why [b]some theists sometimes view God in such a petty light.[/b]
heart or view it was sacred. Look at how people have changed from the
Old Testament times to today’s people, they used to hold their own word
over their own lives and the lives of their families, now people flip on a
dime with an ounce of justification. People wouldn’t even put vowels in
the name of God when they wrote it due to how Holy they viewed God’s
name. Now days, God’s name and Jesus are used in several cuss word
combinations more than likely more than they are in prayer by sheer
numbers of uses among people.
Kelly
23 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75=============================================
I want to bring out this one verse for dear Deucer if I can. Verse 12 where it mentions both Jews and Greeks being saved. He insist that if the 144,000 number is to be taken seriously then only Jews can be a part of the 144,000. Verse 12 here differs with that logic. Other scriptures also point that out.
It's open to all and always has been, if they at all by Jesus of another 3rd group of humans in general going to heaven after death.
Clearing Up the Puzzle
What did Jesus have in mind when he spoke about being “born from water and spirit”? Birth means beginning. A new birth means a new beginning. In the case of Jesus’ disciples, their first step toward being born again began once they repented of their sins, turned away from a wrong course, and were baptized in water. Starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., in response to such action, Jehovah gave them what Peter referred to as “a new birth to a living hope . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1 Peter 1:3, 4; 3:21) Jehovah’s holy spirit implanted in them a conviction that they would eventually live with Jesus Christ in heaven. This gave them a whole new outlook on life—a new beginning.
==========================================
The implantation of the Holy Spirit of God in a believer is the coming of Jesus Christ Himself into the believer:
"[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the Spirit..." (2 Cor. 3:17)
Since the Lord Jesus Christ IS the Holy Spirit, the imparting of the Holy Spirit is the imparting of the Lord Jesus Christ in His "pneumatic" form as divine life imparting Spirit.
This is exactly what Jesus taught the disciples in John 14 - 16. Here, particularly:
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:16-18)
The "He", the Spirit of reality in verse 17 suddenly changes to "I" in verse 18. Therefore the coming of the Spirit of reality to the disciples is the coming of Jesus Christ Himself to the disciples.
He was WITH them. And in the future to that moment He would be IN them - " ... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU AS ORPHANS; I AM COMING TO YOU." (my emphasis)
Since the coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of Jesus Himself in His pneumatic form, Christ is located both in heaven and in the disciples in the book of Romans:
1.) Christ in heaven - "It is Christ Jesus who died ... who is also at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)
2.) Christ in the regenerated believers - "But if Christ is in you, ... the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)
The Apostle Paul therefore encourages the Christians to definitely realize that Jesus Christ has come into them period:
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:6)
To be born again is therefore to receive Jesus Christ the Person into the innermost spiritual being. This is a living Person. This is not simply a force but a living Person, albeit a very unusual and supernatural Person.
"Life giving Spirit" means the giving of a living Person to be our new divine life, mingled and interwoven with our natural life.
=================================
Was this simply an emotional religious experience? No. God’s holy spirit made them into something entirely new, “a new creation.” (2 Corinthians 5:17) When they were first born as humans, they were sinful children of Adam, inheriting all the imperfection that he passed on to his descendants. Now, upon being “born again,” these disciples obtained a clean standing before God. How? The merits of Jesus’ sacrifice were applied in their behalf. Thereby, God viewed them as righteous even while they were still imperfect humans. (Romans 3:25, 26; 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 6:11)
=============================================
To be born again is more than to just receive a clean standing before God. It is to receive a justification (a clean standing) SO THAT we may receive God Himself in Christ.
The following passage shows a two step process:
1.) Reconciled to God in justification.
2.) Saved in the sphere and realm of God's indwelling divine life imparted into man.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (ROm. 5:10)
The believer confess Jesus as his Lord. He is reconciled to God through the death of Christ on His cross. He is redeemed from the curse of the law of God. Having BEEN reconciled, "much more" he will be saved in the realm of the indwelling Christ who has been imparted into him to mingle with his life.
He would not leave any of His disciples as orphans. He would come to them as the "Another Comforter", as the Spirit of reality, the last Adam who became a divine life dispensing Spirit.
So to be born again is really to have Jesus Christ born into you. It is both your new birth and the birth of Jesus Christ in you.
"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal 2:20)
"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through his grace, to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15,16a)
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by jaywillSo....Jesus actually puts some part of himself in you? Is that true of the 144,000? Are you one of the 144,000?
[b]=============================================
Clearing Up the Puzzle
What did Jesus have in mind when he spoke about being “born from water and spirit”? Birth means beginning. A new birth means a new beginning. In the case of Jesus’ disciples, their first step toward being born again began once they repented of their sins, turned away from a wro ...[text shortened]... gh his grace, to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15,16a)[/b]
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75============================================
So....Jesus actually puts some part of himself in you? Is that true of the 144,000? Are you one of the 144,000?
So....Jesus actually puts some part of himself in you? Is that true of the 144,000? Are you one of the 144,000?
======================================
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
This passage simply informs the Christians that "Jesus Christ is in you". If you want to believe that Jesus Christ can be in you, then believe the word of God. If you do not want to believe it, then just do not believe it.
Paul speaks here of "the faith". And "the faith", the normal Christian faith is that we can receive "Jesus Christ" to come into us.
If you do not have this realization, Paul infers that concerning the Christian faith you may be "disapproved".
I want to be "approved" in this regard and not "disapproved". Are you going to lean on your own understanding ? Or are you going to receive the word of God in faith ?
I don't think it is necessary to bring up the 144,000. The Body of Christ consists of all those in whom Jesus Christ has come into their being. And that is far more than just 144,000 people.
The 144,000 have thier place. But that is not a matter that only 144,000 can receive Jesus Christ and say with Paul " It pleased God ... to reveal His Son in me".
I want you to see what regeneration really is. You do not need to know that much about the 144,000 for that. I might say something about 144,000 if I can impress you that regeneration is to have Jesus Christ born into your innermost being.
23 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillWell I have to disagree with you. The 144,000 according to Jesus will be ruling with him in heaven as judges with Jesus over mankind. So the life we all seek as humans will be up to them and Jesus. I think that's very important. In fact I'd say it could men life or death.
[b]============================================
So....Jesus actually puts some part of himself in you? Is that true of the 144,000? Are you one of the 144,000?
======================================
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you that regeneration is to have Jesus Christ born into your innermost being.
Do you still think they are not important?
Matthew 19:28 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:28-30 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:2 (New International Version, ©2010)
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
Revelation 20:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
So are you also saying more then the 144,000 are going to heaven? If so could you please show me the scriptures that explain that?
23 Nov 10
What these speak of G-75 (Steve) is the conversion experience. When one becomes a Christian. Becoming born again or as I understand more literally being born from above. Sure there can be a person involved in the communication of the Gospel message but one must believe and receive it. Your right Jesus / God does the saving or redeeming not man. I don't think all conversion experiences are flashy or some way out spiritually experience. I don't think there is some magical formula either but the spirit of God is directly involved in this work. (I know you believe the spirit is only a force) I admit for me initially it was fear of God and punishment that I felt I deserved. I now do not fear so much the punishment aspect anymore I only desire for God to have his rightful place in my life. Why do we come to the kings table?
Manny