It doesn't matter how old I believe the universe is; that is not part of the equation concerning whether Jesus is a created being. The universe could be trillions of years old, billions of years old, millions of years old, even thousands of years old. All of those have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being a created being or not, nothing at all to do with it. So far, you have brought up dinosaurs, the age of the universe, and who knows what else, what you have not done, which is the only thing that matters is give a scriptural reference for Jesus being a created being.
I agree that Rajk999 who condemns is off the main point.
"God created man." God became a man. God is uncreated and eternal. Man, an item of God's creation (Gen. 1:26,27) was what God put on Himself. So He is the Creator as well as a creature an item of the creation.
Here Jesus the man admits that He was the God of the Old Testament wanting to protect Jerusalem and His people as a bird protects young offspring birds.
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! " (Matt. 23:17a)
This was in the Old Testament before Jesus was born. Then He goes on.
" . . . who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (v.37)
Jehovah God who was as a protective bird on behalf of Israel (Isaiah 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12) was now incarnated in the born man Jesus of Nazareth. He was God Himself yet a man miraculously born of a virgin.
Nothing in all creation is more superlative then this incarnated God-man. No wonder He who created all things is also "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:`5,16a)
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, Because in Him all things were created . . . "
@sonship saidI dont do that. Jesus condemns or Jesus accepts.
I agree that Rajk999 who condemns is off the main point.
I repeat what Jesus said.
Jesus condemns your doctrine of mouth worship and calling Lord Lord only.
Jesus accepts those who do good works and keep the commandments
I know you dont like it and you hate Jesus for that, but Jesus said calling his name in vain without doing what he says is pointless, and those who do that will be cast into outer darkness.
Jesus is not your friend because your doctrine and His are complete opposites
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I dont do that. Jesus condemns or Jesus accepts.
You condemn with many names those who you disagree with.
The last name I recall used by you was "dunce".
There have been plenty of other derogatory names.
I repeat what Jesus said.
Some of the words you repeat. Satan repeated words from the Hebrew Bible to Jesus in the wilderness temptation. Jesus had to remind him and us all what ELSE was written to give a complete picture.
Jesus condemns your doctrine of mouth worship and calling Lord Lord only.
There is no "doctrine of mouth worship" really. There is the exhortation and encouragement to call on the name of the Lord throughout the Bible.
In the book of leading up to and including Psalms alone there may be around 500 references to calling on the Lord.
Jesus didn't teach "Do not Call".
Jesus said to do the will of His Father will be accompanied by the reward of entering into the kingdom of the heavens. And many who say on that day "Lord, Lord" will not be so rewarded.
You are being utilized to keep people away from Christ teaching there is no such thing as an intimate relationship with Jesus.
The importance of the Trinity is that man WOULD, WOULD, WOULD have an intimate relationship with God. And that certainly for obedience.
The first act of obedience is to receive Him by faith.
The subsequent acts of obedience is to learn to live in oneness with Him following His leading. That is also a matter of the exercise of faith, of trusting in the Lord.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Rom. 8:14)
But you mistakenly do not take the epistle of Romans to be the word of God - the word of Christ.
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@sonship saidOf course, you are a dunce, and a fool and a mouth worshipper. I thought you already knew that you were these things. If you are offended by these names then you need to change your doctrine. These or similar names are used by Christ, and worse, to describe people who do not keep the commandments etc and I can give you the references if you like. There is an attitude of lip service, that Jesus spoke of and this is exactly what you preach to people ie to profess faith and nothing else.
@Rajk999I dont do that. Jesus condemns or Jesus accepts.
You condemn with many names those who you disagree with.
The last name I recall used by you was "dunce".
There have been plenty of other derogatory names.
Paul said Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.(Romans 8:12-14 KJV)
You mistakenly believe that the Spirit of God is some force that is reserved for Christians only. ALL PEOPLE who live righteously and do good works ALL have the Spirit of God, and they are all the sons of God.
All people who live sinfully have the spirit of the devil in them. Christians who profess faith and then proceed to live in sin and unrighteously DO NOT HAVE ANY HOLY SPIRIT, NEITHER ANY SPIRIT OF GOD.
@galveston75 saidHey y'all. Don't see any comments on this post. I would think this would be some info on the trinity that just maybe give the trinity posters some food for thought.
For the trinity people here. At your leisure here is a long list of many that study the bible and have looked into the mystery of the Trinity.
Check it out......
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.php
Well actually not "maybe" but "it will".
So not kidding, it really will....
New Bible Dictionary 1982
"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."
". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . ."
"Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."
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The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism 1995
". . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament."
If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then how did the church of the first three centuries get along so well without it? If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then why is it not mentioned in the Bible?
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The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."
The trinity is a deviation from believing in one God; it is a deviation from what the early church taught and it is a deviation from the scripture.
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The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967
"The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."
So there ya go. That is just of few of the comments from many religions and other scholars of the Bible. So (((( if you truly want to learn the truth )))))) take out a little time to see.
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.php
@galveston75 saidThere is disagreement so where do we go, the scriptures and there untainted ones.
Hey y'all. Don't see any comments on this post. I would think this would be some info on the trinity that just maybe give the trinity posters some food for thought.
Well actually not "maybe" but "it will".
So not kidding, it really will....
New Bible Dictionary 1982
"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."
". . . it did not find a place formally i ...[text shortened]... the truth )))))) take out a little time to see.
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.php
I think maybe the key to understanding the Trinity is in the Apostle John describing Jesus Christ as “the Word,” the method by which God creates (through speaking words) and the Apostle John saying all things were made by Jesus (the Word) and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In this sense, Jesus always existed as a part of God the Father (I’m talking about the Son of God as He existed prior to His birth to the Virgin Mary.)
I’m going to think more on this, but I think there’s a connection among Jesus being the Word, the way in which God creates and the fact everything was created by Jesus.
@galveston75 saidYou’re assuming (I think) that men can comprehend God and do so on a logical level.
Hey y'all. Don't see any comments on this post. I would think this would be some info on the trinity that just maybe give the trinity posters some food for thought.
Well actually not "maybe" but "it will".
So not kidding, it really will....
New Bible Dictionary 1982
"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."
". . . it did not find a place formally i ...[text shortened]... the truth )))))) take out a little time to see.
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.php
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
@pb1022 saidI agree the text that points to the divinity of Christ is in the scripture, what points to this isn’t from something new in the text but what was always there.
I think maybe the key to understanding the Trinity is in the Apostle John describing Jesus Christ as “the Word,” the method by which God creates (through speaking words) and the Apostle John saying all things were made by Jesus (the Word) and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In this sense, Jesus always existed as a part of God the Father (I’m talking about the So ...[text shortened]... ong Jesus being the Word, the way in which God creates and the fact everything was created by Jesus.
@kellyjay saidI think an analogy is to an artist who has a great gift for painting. The talent exists within Him but is not expressed until He creates a painting.
I agree the text that points to the divinity of Christ is in the scripture, what points to this isn’t from something new in the text but what was always there.
But just because he hasn’t created a painting doesn’t mean the talent isn’t in him.
The analogy is flawed because the talent had to be developed, so maybe it’s better to think of the artist possessing this talent from birth (akin to a child prodigy.)
@pb1022 saidThanks for your comments.
You’re assuming (I think) that men can comprehend God and do so on a logical level.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
So lets flip the coin here for a minute. So if, lets say a mortal man who begines to read the bible and takes most of what he reads as black and white. That's really OK with the Bible because most of it is in just black and white.
And through prayer he ask God for help in understanding the harder things. he obvious one is when the wording in certain scriptures gets to the subject of Jehovah, Jesus and the holy spirit.
Now lets say he was never a religious man and had no preconceived notions of basically anything with religion and all the different layers of history good and bad.
So as you say that men can comprehend God on a logical level. So I guess that says that men also can't comprehend.
I agree on some level but you know the scriptures that describes the kind of humans that God looks for? That would be humble, meek, teachable, open minded, etc.
I'm assuming by the term you use here that a "natural man" would be a simpler person or one who can't see deeper into spiritual issues even if they tried?
Hum. Well the scripture you quoted I'm pretty sure isn't implying that. I believe it's just speaking of ones who by choice do not look into spiritual things at all. But as I said there are quite a few scriptures that describes the type person in heart and mind that are looking for truths.
Perhaps with no influence from religions that do practice beliefs in such things as the trinity, might just be looking thru that teaching as not a truth at all. In other words he see's thru it for what it is.
So just perhaps you and some of the others here do look at one side of the coin and assume that your ideas are the correct.
Just as Saul/Paul 100% believed he was doing God a favor by persecuting Jesus's followers with believing he was doing God's work for him.
So my point here is that once a person decides to let down that defense of the trinity and most importantly prays to Jehovah by using his name and does this prayer exactly just as the Bible says too in that you pray thru his son Jesus, not to him but to Jehovah, you just may get a new clarity of what the trinity really is.
Give it a shot. If the heart is in the right condition spiritually Jehovah will see it and you never know what might happen.....
The Father is important.
The Son is important.
The Holy Spirit is important.
They always were to the Christian church.
The words that are not in the Bible like "trinity" the church was forced to arrive at to defend the Person of Christ against type teachers LIKE Galveston who though to demote Christ from His Deity.
Had these heretics not pushed the brothers into such a position perhaps the term would not have needed to be invented.
The truth of God's three-oneness is long before the 4th century.
Paul uses these titles interchangeably to show the God indwelling the Christians is
"The Spirit of God" who is "the Spirit of Christ" who is "Christ" who is "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." (See Rom. 8:9-11)
And Jesus in John chapters 14 - 17 unveils interpenetration and coinherance of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit. "Coinherance" is also not a word found in the Bible as "trinity" is not found. The fact is designated because it is there.
@pb1022 saidJesus (I prefer Yeshua but it doesn't matter) cant be part of The Father and be The Father's firstborn of creation at the same time, it doesn't make sense.
In this sense, Jesus always existed as a part of God the Father (I’m talking about the Son of God as He existed prior to His birth to the Virgin Mary.)