@kellyjay saidI know from past discussions that you think the universe is 6,000 yrs old. If thats the case then I can see why your thinking is handicapped, and pointless telling you anything.
What you need to produce was something that suggests there was a time Jesus wasn't because the scripture is quite clear He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I know He was born, it was prophesied years before it occurred, He came into the world as a child, but before that, He was one with the Father. That means He didn't become; He didn't change, He always was the Lo ...[text shortened]...
While I'm telling you scripturally speaking He is the Word of God, always was, is, and will be.
@rajk999 saidIt doesn't matter how old I believe the universe is; that is not part of the equation concerning whether Jesus is a created being. The universe could be trillions of years old, billions of years old, millions of years old, even thousands of years old. All of those have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being a created being or not, nothing at all to do with it. So far, you have brought up dinosaurs, the age of the universe, and who knows what else, what you have not done, which is the only thing that matters is give a scriptural reference for Jesus being a created being.
I know from past discussions that you think the universe is 6,000 yrs old. If thats the case then I can see why your thinking is handicapped, and pointless telling you anything.
@chaney3 saidI should have thought of and said this earlier because it’s the right answer:
Okay....to sum up the OP:
Let's say:
#1...I believe in God as creator.
#2...I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to redeem humans.
#3...I believe the Holy Spirit exists.
Yet.....I am not able, with logic or faith, to see all 3 as 1.
Is that acceptable in God's view?
Note: I am merely asking for opinions, to assist with my neverending cycle of not knowing exactly what to believe. And trying to find Biblical answers isn't getting me anywhere.
Why not bring your question to God in a sincere, heartfelt prayer?
@pb1022 saidI've done that. I've asked for wisdom and/or clarity many times with regards to the Trinity. If for no other reason than to know the truth. The truth about knowing who it is that I'm worshipping and praying to. I think it matters very much. This has been a spiritual stumbling block for me.
I should have thought of and said this earlier because it’s the right answer:
Why not bring your question to God in a sincere, heartfelt prayer?
It's like someone telling you that 3+3=8, then wanting to proceed in teaching advanced math. But my mind is stuck on the 3+3=8, and won't allow me any further, when others seem to casually accept it.
Jesus advises to seek, and then we will find.
(My prayers for wisdom and clarity are yet to be answered, obviously)
@chaney3
I have never been able to detect a separation with the Wonderful One who came into my heart. Sometimes I say "Lord Jesus, I love you." Sometimes I say "Abba Father, I love You."
I cannot detect any difference as it is the same Wonderful Spirit Who has come to me.
In our local Lord's Table Meeting where we remember the Lord, usually our first praises are to the Lord Jesus. After our spirits have been released and the cup and bread have been passed the latter part of the meeting has our prayers of thanksgiving to the Father.
We are preoccupied with our gratitude to the Father. WE feel that with the Son as our Elder Brother we now sing together to the Father. This feeling is based much on the Lord Jesus saying that in the midst of the church He Himself with His brothers will sing praises to the Father.
"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers.
Saying, "I will declare You name to My brothers, in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You."
And again, " I will trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." (Hebrews 2:11 - 13)
If you would like to be invited to a Zoom table meeting in my locality to observe and participate in the table meeting opened to all Christians, send me a Private Message. And if I think you will not embarrass me for having you come as my guest, we can attend a Lord's Table Meeting together some day chaney3.
@chaney3 saidI take it you don’t believe the Holy Spirit is God either?
I've done that. I've asked for wisdom and/or clarity many times with regards to the Trinity. If for no other reason than to know the truth. The truth about knowing who it is that I'm worshipping and praying to. I think it matters very much. This has been a spiritual stumbling block for me.
It's like someone telling you that 3+3=8, then wanting to proceed in teaching adva ...[text shortened]... eek, and then we will find.
(My prayers for wisdom and clarity are yet to be answered, obviously)
@sonship saidI doubt chaney3 would embarrass anyone. He seems like a very sincere and heartfelt person.
@chaney3
I have never been able to detect a separation with the Wonderful One who came into my heart. Sometimes I say "Lord Jesus, I love you." Sometimes I say "Abba Father, I love You."
I cannot detect any difference as it is the same Wonderful Spirit Who has come to me.
In our local Lord's Table Meeting where we remember the Lord, usuall ...[text shortened]... having you come as my guest, we can attend a Lord's Table Meeting together some day chaney3.
Here we see the Lord Jesus as the Son yet also the Elder Brother of the Christians saying by way of prophecy that He will declare the name Father in the midst of the church.
"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers. Saying, "I will declare Your name to My brothers, in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You." And again, " I will trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." (Hebrews 2:11 - 13)
God became a man, died and resurrected as the Firstborn Son of God. This is something different from the Firstborn of all creation. This is that He is [b]"the Firstborn from the dead."{/b].
We love and pray to the Lord Jesus. Yet in another sense as our Elder Brother He too prays in us to both His Father and our Father.
We can hardly detect though any difference within. It is quite alright to tell the Father you love Him and tell the Lord Jesus that you love Him. There is in the New Testament prayer both to the Lord Jesus and to the Father. Yet they are one God, one Triune God.
@PB1022
He is welcomed to come as an observer. It is not our table, it is the Lord's Table.
In an Exclusive Brethren any Christian may not just come to their communion without a thorough exmination from the elders of the assembly. We in the local churches usually do not have this kind of official examination.
It does not mean that we are loose and sloppy about it. The "Lord's Table" is the Lord's. We trust the Lord to protect His glory and protect His table meeting of the church.
So any Christian is welcomed to attend the Table Meeting of most of the local churches with which I am familiar. Coming as a spy to cause trouble or disruption would not be our desire. But to share the meeting with a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord is acceptable.
Because of Covid and the available technology of the Internet it is possible to visit Christian congregations everywhere if you are genuine in attitude.
@pb1022 saidMy mind cannot comprehend a Trinity, or Godhead, or anything that involves more than one, being God.
I take it you don’t believe the Holy Spirit is God either?
What makes sense to me is that God is God. Jesus is the Son, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. (All separate entities)
I'm beginning to envy the people who lived in the B.C. era, for not having to concern themselves with sorting out a 3 God, God.
Something seems wrong with having the "good news" being so difficult to comprehend.
@PB1022
To the following question (not to me) but related to the Importance of the Trinity. allow me to comment.
I take it you don’t believe the Holy Spirit is God either?
I have to believe in the Holy Spirit as God.
I have to believe in the Holy Spirit as Christ Himself in a form in which He can reach
the inner being of me.
Notice that the Lord Jesus intercedes for the Christians from the right hand of God.
"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)
Yet the Holy Spirit within the Christian also intercedes for them when they have difficulty knowing what words to use in praying.
"Moreover, in like manner the Spirit also joins in to help us in our weakness, for we do not know for what we should pray as is fitting, but the Spirit Himself interedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Rom. 8:25)
Wonderful! In the very same epistle, in the very same chapter we are told Christ intercedes for us yet the indwelling Holy Spirit does also. (vs 34 comp. verse 25).
Also Christ at the right hand of God interceding in spite of the condemning of people like Rajk999 types, is also the Christ IN the believers in Romans 8:9-11.
" But of CHRIST is in you, . . . (v. 10a)
The Trinity is experiential and dwelling in the ones who receive the Lord Jesus.
@sonship saidI'm not sure that I'll ever be in a position to participate in anything like what you're describing.
@chaney3
I have never been able to detect a separation with the Wonderful One who came into my heart. Sometimes I say "Lord Jesus, I love you." Sometimes I say "Abba Father, I love You."
I cannot detect any difference as it is the same Wonderful Spirit Who has come to me.
In our local Lord's Table Meeting where we remember the Lord, usuall ...[text shortened]... having you come as my guest, we can attend a Lord's Table Meeting together some day chaney3.
But thank you for offering.
My mind cannot comprehend a Trinity, or Godhead, or anything that involves more than one, being God.
What makes sense to me is that God is God. Jesus is the Son, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. (All separate entities)
I'm beginning to envy the people who lived in the B.C. era, for not having to concern themselves with sorting out a 3 God, God.
Something seems wrong with having the "good news" being so difficult to comprehend.
Then just keep telling the Lord Jesus that you Love Him.
And do so often as you seek to follow His gentle leading within.
The Father will not be hurt or jealous.
Or keep loving the Father and telling Him "O Abba Father, my dear Abba, Daddy my God and Father, I just LOVE YOU."
Quite wonderful this is too. The Son of God who has come into your heart if you have received Him will not be envious, jealous, competitive or offended that you pray the Father such.
No of us can fully comprehend this "mystery of God" (Col. 2:2) - Christ completely.
"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father! So then you are no longer a slave but a sin; and if a son, and heir also through God." (Galatians 4:6,7)
Sing along with me this passage. I wrote a song to it.
You Are All Sons of God Through Faith in Christ Jesus.
https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore/you-are-all-sons-gal3-26-27
@chaney3 saidI really cannot understand. You believe what Jesus said. Why are you concerning yourself with the false doctrines of the churches, and trying to justify other peoples false teachings. What is wrong with just doing as Jesus said. This is what true faith is, trusting that Jesus said those who keep the commandments will get eternal life. It appears that your trust in Jesus Christ is weak and you want to put your faith in the church.
My mind cannot comprehend a Trinity, or Godhead, or anything that involves more than one, being God.
What makes sense to me is that God is God. Jesus is the Son, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. (All separate entities)
I'm beginning to envy the people who lived in the B.C. era, for not having to concern themselves with sorting out a 3 God, God.
Something seems wrong with having the "good news" being so difficult to comprehend.
I'm not sure that I'll ever be in a position to participate in anything like what you're describing.
Okay.
But there is no need to be troubled overmuch if you are just interested in loving the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
Can we fully understand how Christ is in a man yet Christ is also at the right hand of God? But we can enjoy the reality and express thanksgiving and praise for this.
"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)
" . . . the Spirit of God dwells in you, Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you . . . " (Rom. 8:9,10a)
One of my mentors Brother Witness Lee was fond of referring to Andrew Murray's book The Spirit of Christ where he said that the best prayers of a Christian were the prayers of Christ in him on earth to the Christ who was in the heavens at the right hand of God.
You can see a little bit about Andrew Murray (1828 - 1917) on Wikipedia.