@galveston75 said<<So as you say that men can comprehend God on a logical level.>>
Thanks for your comments.
So lets flip the coin here for a minute. So if, lets say a mortal man who begines to read the bible and takes most of what he reads as black and white. That's really OK with the Bible because most of it is in just black and white.
And through prayer he ask God for help in understanding the harder things. he obvious one is when the wording ...[text shortened]... is in the right condition spiritually Jehovah will see it and you never know what might happen.....
I don’t think men can comprehend God on a logical level. I don’t think our minds are sufficient for it.
<<I'm assuming by the term you use here that a "natural man" would be a simpler person or one who can't see deeper into spiritual issues even if they tried?>>
I think a natural man is one who lives in the flesh and minds the things of the flesh. I think the Apostle Paul makes a distinction between walking in the flesh and minding the things of the flesh vs. walking in the Spirit and minding the things of the Spirit in Romans 8.
<<I believe it's just speaking of ones who by choice do not look into spiritual things at all.>>
I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes to how one looks into spiritual things; with a carnal mind or with his spirit?
<<So my point here is that once a person decides to let down that defense of the trinity and most importantly prays to Jehovah by using his name and does this prayer exactly just as the Bible says too in that you pray thru his son Jesus, not to him but to Jehovah, you just may get a new clarity of what the trinity really is.
Give it a shot. If the heart is in the right condition spiritually Jehovah will see it and you never know what might happen.....>>
I’m not a Christ denier. I’m comfortable with what I believe. I believe in the Trinity and I’m in good company (though that’s not why I believe the Trinity.)
@sonship saidThe word “Rapture” is also not in the Holy Bible, though a description of it is.
The Father is important.
The Son is important.
The Holy Spirit is important.
They always were to the Christian church.
The words that are not in the Bible like "trinity" the church was forced to arrive at to defend the Person of Christ against type teachers LIKE Galveston who though to demote Christ from His Deity.
Had these heretics ...[text shortened]... not a word found in the Bible as "trinity" is not found. The fact is designated because it is there.
@medullah saidI don’t believe Jesus Christ is a created being.
Jesus (I prefer Yeshua but it doesn't matter) cant be part of The Father and be The Father's firstborn of creation at the same time, it doesn't make sense.
Jesus Christ certainly never said or suggested that - in fact He strongly suggested the opposite, and Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament said He was from everlasting.
@medullah saidRead the next two verses:
Col 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
(Colossians 1:16-17)
I agree with this commentary from bibleref.com:
<<The phrase "firstborn of all creation," has caused considerable controversy. Some have attempted to interpret this to mean that Jesus was God the Father's first creation, and afterwards everything else was created by or through Jesus. Taken this way, Jesus would be a created being and not equal to the Father. He would not be eternal. However, in this context, the term "firstborn" refers to supremacy, or priority. Jesus is the greatest over all creation. He is not a created being; He is the Creator.>>
https://www.bibleref.com/Colossians/1/Colossians-1-15.html
@medullah said“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
If you picked the bible up a read it from cover to cover you might some up with the idea that the Father and Son are the same person if you weren't concentrating.
There is no way that you would assemble a trinity.
(Matthew 28:19)
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
(Romans 8:9)
“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
(Romans 8:15-17)
@pb1022 saidProverbs 8:22
I don’t believe Jesus Christ is a created being.
Jesus Christ certainly never said or suggested that - in fact He strongly suggested the opposite, and Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament said He was from everlasting.
22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
This is speaking of Jesus. How do you negate the clear fact of his beginning which was by Jehovah creating him?
I mean this is so clear. But by a trinity believer not accepting this clear and simple statement would be like me saying I wasn't born thru my parents. I could not exist without my mother giving birth to me. But the trinity says no he wasn't even though Jesus says it here as well as other scriptures that he had a beginning by means of his Father..
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@galveston75 saidWhile I am in agreement that the Son of God was created by the Father at some point in the distant past, maybe millions of years before the creation of this Earth, that passage is not about Jesus Christ. Read it again. It is about Wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22
22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
This is speaking of Jesus. How do you negate the clear fact of his beginning which was by Jehovah creating him?
I mean this is so clear. But by a trinity believer not accepting this clear and simple statement would be like me saying I wasn't born th ...[text shortened]... ough Jesus says it here as well as other scriptures that he had a beginning by means of his Father..
The Son is UNDER and LESSER than the Father
God is ABOVE and GREATER than the Son
The bible is clear on those points
Trying to claim that they are equal just to support a false doctrine is ridiculous.
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Proverbs 8:22
22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
It should read Jehovah POSSESSED Me.
"Proverbs 8:22-31
King James Version
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:22, ESV: "“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work,
How would God have the wisdom to go acquire wisdom if He had none?
The Wisdom of God existed as long as God existed.
If the Wisdom is Christ then He is inseparable from God.
When did God NOT possess His wisdom?
For how would God have the wisdom to create His wisdom if He had none before?
And WHEN would God have been without His Wisdom.
You polytheists have teach of a God and another god who became Jesus have no case.
Jesus is the Word of God, God in the flesh. Many people who wish to call Jesus a created being, if it is true their Jesus is created, they not God created their Jesus. The Word of God in scripture is not a created being. He says things we don't like, so a self-created Jesus can be made to say things they like leaving them off the hook for those things that don't line up with their doctrine. Hell, works, faith, all the little nasty things that the whole Bible talks about don't have to be accepted as is because their self-created Jesus wouldn't say those things or promote them.
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@sonship said... If the Wisdom is Christ ...
@Rajk999Proverbs 8:22
22 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
IF? If means you are making an assumption.
Assumptions cannot lead to firm conclusions
Except in your little twisted brain
You are desperate to force the bible to say that God = Christ
Christ said God is GREATER.
You are fool [for the umpteenth time] for twisting the bible.
And you do it over and over and over.
@kellyjay saidWhat utter rubbish.
Jesus is the Word of God, God in the flesh. Many people who wish to call Jesus a created being, if it is true their Jesus is created, they not God created their Jesus. The Word of God in scripture is not a created being. He says things we don't like, so a self-created Jesus can be made to say things they like leaving them off the hook for those things that don't line up with ...[text shortened]... ave to be accepted as is because their self-created Jesus wouldn't say those things or promote them.
Lol
Are you on drugs?
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@Rajk999
"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "(RcV)
Its a wonderful verse. I tend to think it refers to Christ.
Proverbs 8 is not quite as clear as John 1
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
@rajk999 saidThanks. I will look into that.
While I am in agreement that the Son of God was created by the Father at some point in the distant past, maybe millions of years before the creation of this Earth, that passage is not about Jesus Christ. Read it again. It is about Wisdom.
The Son is UNDER and LESSER than the Father
God is ABOVE and GREATER than the Son
The bible is clear on those points
Trying to claim that they are equal just to support a false doctrine is ridiculous.
@sonship saidYou could tend to think whatever you like, who cares. People are interested in factual statements from the bible, not what tickles your fancy.
@Rajk999
"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. "(RcV)
Its a wonderful verse. I tend to think it refers to Christ.
Proverbs 8 is not quite as clear as John 1
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
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You are desperate to force the bible to say that God = Christ
Christ said God is GREATER.
God is the ultimate emblem of authority.
And God is also the ultimate emblem of submission.
In the Trinity we see both manifested - the ultimate in reality of authority in the Father. And we see the manifestation of the ultimate reality in submission also in the Son.
Neither is in competition, envy, jealousy. You do God no favors because you cannot exalt His Son enough. The higher you exalt His Son the happier God is.
As for the Wisdom of God - the Triune God is to dispense Himself as Wisdom INTO His redeemed people. That is why the New Testament says that to the real believers Christ is made by God their wisdom.
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption, that as it is written, "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:30,31)
The trinity for the dispensing of God into man.