2 edits
Originally posted by Proper KnobYou have many organizations Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig which help people with overweight problems.
So is obesity, yet I don't see you chuntering on about that. Obesity kills far more people than 'gayness'. Yet you, and every other Christian on this forum, remain strangely silent on the issue.
You have many health clinics and exercise clubs which help people with obesity. When some of you guys start branding these groups as "Fatphobia" then maybe we can talk about a parallel .
Can you see crowds of picketers brandishing signs outside of Weight Watchers about bigoted "Fatphobic" extremists ? Or the lobbying of overweight people to be designated a special class of citizens demanding government benefits from tax revenue, then perhaps an equivalent scenario is on us.
Originally posted by sonshipIndeed to try to draw a parallel is lunacy.
You have many organizations Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig which help people with overweight problems.
You have many health clinics and exercise clubs which help people with obesity. When some of you guys start branding these groups as "Fatphobia" then maybe we can talk about a parallel .
Can you see crowds of picketers brandishing signs outside o ...[text shortened]... ns demanding government benefits from tax revenue, then perhaps an equivalent scenario is on us.
Originally posted by sonshipThere IS fatphobia going on as we speak. For instance, airlines are contemplating a fat fine to get a ticket on a plane.
You have many organizations Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig which help people with overweight problems.
You have many health clinics and exercise clubs which help people with obesity. When some of you guys start branding these groups as "Fatphobia" then maybe we can talk about a parallel .
Can you see crowds of picketers brandishing signs outside o ...[text shortened]... quivalent scenario is on us.
When that happens then maybe we can talk about some parallels.
When you see a fat person who is a comedian, half his act is self deprecating jokes which the audience fully agrees with and laughs their asses off at.
Those are just two examples of a pervasive negative view of obesity in the world today.
Originally posted by sonhouse
There IS fatphobia going on as we speak. For instance, airlines are contemplating a fat fine to get a ticket on a plane.
When you see a fat person who is a comedian, half his act is self deprecating jokes which the audience fully agrees with and laughs their asses off at.
Those are just two examples of a pervasive negative view of obesity in the world today.
Are you saying because obesity is a problem therefore we should endorse behavior which will bring other problems ?
This is akin to saying that when society has one sickness we should tend to it by giving it another sickness.
But with both over eating and sexual desire, how about we encourage "self control" in both areas ?
Originally posted by sonshipPoint succinctly proven.
You have many organizations Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig which help people with overweight problems.
You have many health clinics and exercise clubs which help people with obesity. When some of you guys start branding these groups as "Fatphobia" then maybe we can talk about a parallel .
Can you see crowds of picketers brandishing signs outside o ...[text shortened]... ns demanding government benefits from tax revenue, then perhaps an equivalent scenario is on us.
Originally posted by sonshipexcellent, the solution is spiritual, cultivating Gods spirit will help an individual overcome these things! for self control is a fruitage of that spirit.
[quote] [b]There IS fatphobia going on as we speak. For instance, airlines are contemplating a fat fine to get a ticket on a plane.
When you see a fat person who is a comedian, half his act is self deprecating jokes which the audience fully agrees with and laughs their asses off at.
Those are just two examples of a pervasive negative view of obesity in ...[text shortened]... t with both over eating and sexual desire, how about we encourage "self control" in both areas ?
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouseI don't believe there is any "fatphobia" going on.
There IS fatphobia going on as we speak. For instance, airlines are contemplating a fat fine to get a ticket on a plane.
When you see a fat person who is a comedian, half his act is self deprecating jokes which the audience fully agrees with and laughs their asses off at.
Those are just two examples of a pervasive negative view of obesity in the world today.
After all, I've been to Wal-Mart and McDonald's. As a matter of fact, I've been to a McDonald's IN a Wal-Mart. They looooove fat people.
2 edits
Originally posted by Suziannesadly no we are under duress to apply Biblical principles like the rest of mankind, no free rides, family tickets or VIP passes, never the less, your acknowledgement of our exalted spiritual position is duly noted. We are rather awesome to be honest.
But you're an exalted JW! Don't you get a "pass"?
Originally posted by SuzianneSure, they want to KEEP people fat. I think a lot of folks sitting next to an obese person in a jet would rather be in another seat, as an example.
I don't believe there is any "fatphobia" going on.
After all, I've been to Wal-Mart and McDonald's. As a matter of fact, I've been to a McDonald's IN a Wal-Mart. They looooove fat people.
Originally posted by sonshipNo surprise that you've once again avoided addressing the germane points and questions posed to you as you did with Matthew 7:12. It's a childish tactic to preserve your ill-conceived beliefs. Ask yourself why you prefer the darkness to the light.
[quote] [b] You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. The reality is that there is a continuum between male and female rather than a distinct dividing line. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender isn't as "black and white" as depicted ...[text shortened]... ionalize a momentous grand social activism on a sparse few situations of atypical birth defects.
1 edit
No surprise that you've once again avoided addressing the germane points and questions posed to you as you did with Matthew 7:12. It's a childish tactic to preserve your ill-conceived beliefs. Ask yourself why you prefer the darkness to the light.
When someone says I evaded a point, I usually have to go back and re-read the entire thread. Maybe the answer that I gave you didn't like and you count that as "evasion."
I think I recall saying that I personally was born a male. I believe not only my physical BODY was that of a male. But the immaterial SOUL that accompanied it was that of a male.
Does that mean that I never had any homosexual thoughts ? No it doesn't. But in my cause I did not oppose the natural correspondence of my male soul with my male body. I didn't fight against this. I went quite along with it.
I don't see why this answer is counted as evasion.
In the mean time let's take on Matthew 7:12 head on. (Seems like I recall talking about it though)
Matthew 7:12 - "Therefore all that you wish men would do to you, so also you do to them; for this is the law and the prophets."
When I addressed this passage before I spoke of its larger context. Apparently, you didn't like that. But you really should consider why this passage is situated in the place that it is.
I want people to respect and love me.
I want people not to force me unless I am causing harm to someone.
I want people who know the truth about something to not be afraid to share that truth with me if they do it in love.
I want people to not have to change their own mind about truth in order to not offend me in my behavior.
If I am in a reckless, un-self controlled, greedy, amoral self destructive way of living, I want someone, in love, who knows better, to inform me of my errors.
Then I can say that to a large part I have wanted to be treated the way I would treat someone else as Matthew 7:12 is saying.
Now having said that, I would consider specifically the second part of the passage - " ... so also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets."
Notice, that it doesn't just say "for this is the law" . Jesus said " ... for this is the law and the prophets."
The prophets spoke of the coming Redeemer and Son of God. He is the Great Physician, the Friend of Sinners. And I certainly would like to be treated to this good news that the Savior Jesus loved me and knows the healing art.
So I think I do treat others as I would be treated myself, which includes letting all sinners (refined sinners and unrefined sinners) that in Christ there is forgiveness, salvation, redemption, healing, liberation, and glorious freedom.
But if you look at this from a purely secular point of view, I would want someone to give reasons why they think certain proposed laws are not good laws, if they think that.
And I have briefly spoken why I don't think the legalization of the marriage of same sex lovers is a good law. This I think is more than a "rights" issue. It is craving for respect and confimation from the government.
My opinion is that if your human conscience will not allow you to be at peace with a certain act, no amount of government endorsement of political confirmation will give you that assurance that you are right.
Originally posted by sonshipThe thing is, even though you know your OWN body, you don't know jack about the body of anyone else, even your own wife.No surprise that you've once again avoided addressing the germane points and questions posed to you as you did with Matthew 7:12. It's a childish tactic to preserve your ill-conceived beliefs. Ask yourself why you prefer the darkness to the light.
When someone says I evaded a point, I usually have to go back and re-read the entire thre ...[text shortened]... overnment endorsement of political confirmation will give you that assurance that you are right.
What about the part where your god supposedly made all of us in its image no less, and therefore knew all about gay people and if this god didn't see fit to off them all, why do you think it is ok for them to be shunned by society at large, sometimes even killed, I think it is a death sentence in Sudan or is it Nigeria, one of those. And gays killed in the US and France and Germany, its a world wide thing, killing gays.
So which is worse, your god giving its ok for gays to exist or humans killing gays because of some biblical nonsense?
4 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse
The thing is, even though you know your OWN body, you don't know
So which is worse, your god giving its ok for gays to exist or humans killing gays because of some biblical nonsense?
jack about the body of anyone else, even your own wife.
Marriage is a wonderful thing. Over the course of many years of marriage you and your spouse may open up to one another about many things.
What about the part where your god supposedly made all of us in its image no less,
When I became a Christian, I first did not understand too much about the history of man. I was brought up to think everything as it IS must be the way God wanted everything from the beginning.
Then as I grew in understanding I realized that man and his world are not as God intended but there was what theologians called "the fall". The creation collapsed into a heap of damage from what God had originally made and put under man's dominion.
Then I began to realize that the human race, the society and the environment were not totally destroyed but were damaged by the fall of man. A balanced structure had collapsed into a heap of ruination. Things as they ARE are not as they OUGHT to be.
But not all is totally lost. Men and women are still made in the image of God. Therefore all men and women have a dignity in virtue of them being in correspondence to God.
We have seen some very damaging diseases even rendering people somewhat hideous to observe by many people. The Christian realizes that all people have nonetheless an ingrained nobleness and dignity. They are created according to God's likeness and and His image.
This is a ground to respect oneself and others.
and therefore knew all about gay people and if this god didn't see fit to off them all,
We have one story in Genesis of God judging Sodom and Gomorrah and some surrounding cities for rampant homosexual lust. He rains up them fire and they are destroyed and serve as an example.
It should be noted though that previous to Genesis 18,19 God had sent His patriarch Abraham to rescue the city of Sodom from mass kidnap. Men, women and children from Sodom had been carried away by conquering kings. Read Genesis 14. Seriously, read it.
A very merciful rescue of Sodom orchestrated by God through his prophet Abraham against imperialist kings who carried Sodom off into cruel captivity.
Now, you would think that the Sodomites would have remembered God's rescue of them. But we see God telling Abraham that a cry of utter rebellion was rising up from that city as if they were shaking their fists at the heavens. This was still in Abraham's lifetime mind you:
"And Jehovah said. The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is! I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." (Genesis 18:21,22)
An unthankful civilization was raising their cry of rebellion to the heavens and shaking their fist toward God. It is strange to understand why.
But that is the backround to the one striking instance of a dramatic judgment on a culture for its homosexuality. God has not always reacted in the same manner. I think a lesson is that He has not changed His attitude though His long suffering and patience may be witnessed.
why do you think it is ok for them to be shunned by society at large, sometimes even killed, I think it is a death sentence in Sudan or is it Nigeria, one of those. And gays killed in the US and France and Germany, its a world wide thing, killing gays.
I don't think the mob violence or killing of homosexuals is pleasing to God. Neither do I think so-called church people brandishing signs reading "God Hates Fags" are led by the Holy Spirit.
I live in a democratic country. And I respect democracy. And it ever the majority opinion became something so intolerable to me that I could not endure living here, then I would seek to go live in another country. I respect the rule of law.
I live my life in a community called the church. (That's a word that is easy to take for granted.) But in the church life we do not have anything but love for the sinners and do not organize mob violence or seek to eradicate evil from society.
I practice no ethical cleansing. And I realize that I am only a sinner saved by grace and could be tempted by any sin apart from Christ's keeping power.
At the same time, I will express my faith informed thoughts and don't care if I am accused of evil doing for following as best I can Jesus Christ and the New Testament teaching.
I think that what I have to offer is "Good News" - the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I stop this post here for length's sake. I could write more.