Three wise former gays

Originally posted by sonship
The "bandwagon" is the very vocal activist push to enlarge numbers sympathetic to the gay cause for usually political benefits.

"Join the cause" is call of activism. In a democratic society we would expect nothing less.

You posted

I would want someone to let me know that certain people just want to
see me jump on the bandwagon, to legitimize their own deviancy.

Who wants you to jump on this bandwagon?
Who wants you to become a "very vocal activist"?
You are not making any sense!

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
I would wonder why I am designed for one thing yet have a craving for something I am not designed for.

You didn't answer the question.

If your "soul" (I'm trying to use your language here) was born in the body
of a woman and you were exactly the same person (same thoughts, same
sexual desire, same love for your wife). How would that make you feel? What
would you do?

Originally posted by sonship

1. I would not be happy if my kids were pressured into
making any decision on their sexuality!!

Happy with ANY decision on their sexuality ?

[quote]
2. So if you were born with exactly the same desires you
have now (ie attracted to women) but had a woman's body
you would be happy for a man to penetrate you? That's OK? ...[text shortened]... re place" of marriage - males with females, as our bodies are designed to complement each other.

You assume you were designed...

You evolved, you were not designed.

Thus all arguments that rest on the premise of your 'design' are fallacious.
As they rest on a faulty premise.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] [b]PK's point, which you keep dodging is that you did not CHOOSE your sexual orientation and from what I gather the vast majority of people (both homosexual and heterosexual do not). Based on your response to PK it would seem that you need to educated yourself on both gender and sexual orientation. Try reading the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/ ...[text shortened]... up how a Christian should behave, I respond accordingly from the chapter you suggest I consider.

As usual you refused to address the germane points and questions of my post to only go on a rant that was tangential at best.

Are you afraid to actually address the following?:

1. PK's point, which you keep dodging is that you did not CHOOSE your sexual orientation and from what I gather the vast majority of people (both homosexual and heterosexual do not). Based on your response to PK it would seem that you need to educated yourself on both gender and sexual orientation. Try reading the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation

Try looking to Jesus if you want guidance on this issue:
Matthew 7
12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

With that in mind, you should ask yourself what harm a homosexual couple in a loving, caring relationship does to anyone else. You should also ask yourself if you would have others coerce or otherwise force you out of your sexual orientation (in your case heterosexuality).

Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b]You didn't answer the question.

If your "soul" (I'm trying to use your language here) was born in the body of a woman and you were exactly the same person (same thoughts, same sexual desire, same love for your wife). How would that make you feel? What would you do?

I think if you buy into the pop explanations that you could actually be a woman trapped inside a man's body or a man trapped inside a woman's body, I think you have been deceived.

I think if you have a woman's body you have a woman's soul to go along.
If you have a man's body you have a man's soul to accompany it.

You are buying into a delusion - "Oh No. Here I am a woman in my soul but trapped inside a physical body with male organs!"

I think the truth shall make your free. And one perplexed about their sexuality might start by affirming that their soul matches the physiology of the body design.

The truth is I am a man. I am a male.
The truth is that some woman is a woman by birth.

Let's take the example of Siamese twins physically joined.
Something peculiar may happen. But there are not millions upon millions of Siamese twins.

And I think that we should be careful about jumping to the conclusion that everyone who casts a admiring look at someone of the same sex has a problem with an incorrect external body.

Maybe there are some exceptional cases. I really don't know. I am willing to research into it. But you can't tell me that great numbers of people by the thousands and millions are trapped with a soul of one sex and a body of the opposite sex.

Even so, laws cannot not always be made upon exceptions. Should we legalize drinking and driving because SOME drunk drivers don't happen to harm anyone?

Should we endorse smoking because some smokers may outlive non-smokers to an old age?

If we pursue concepts as you suggest what is to stop a man from saying that he is a husband to his mother trapped inside the body of her son ?

What if a girl thinks she is a wife to her father trapped inside the body of his daughter?

What if a man thinks he is a male sheep trapped inside the body of a man ?

Originally posted by sonship

If your "soul" (I'm trying to use your language here) was born in the body of a woman and you were exactly the same person (same thoughts, same sexual desire, same love for your wife). How would that make you feel? What would you do?

I think if you buy into the pop explanations that you could actually be a woman trapped inside a man's b ...[text shortened]... of his daughter?

What if a man thinks he is a male sheep trapped inside the body of a man ?

The truth is I am a man. I am a male.
The truth is that some woman is a woman by birth.

Let's take the example of Siamese twins physically joined.
Something peculiar may happen. But there are not millions upon millions of Siamese twins.

You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. The reality is that there is a continuum between male and female rather than a distinct dividing line. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender isn't as "black and white" as depicted in the Bible? Do you think it at all possible that sexual orientation similarly exists on a continuum?

You can educate yourself a little bit below. What advantage do you think you get from arguing from a position of ignorance?

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female...
Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male.[1][2][3] Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation, though some intersex conditions also affect an individual's sexual orientation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender and sexual orientation aren't as "black and white" as depicted in the Bible?

Are you now accepting Intelligent Design ?

I think that if the Bible wanted to not indicate some men may have very sensative emotions about other men, it would not have been so detailed about the devotion Jonathan had for his friend David. It says that Jonathan loved his male friend David as he loved his own soul.

However, it does not go on to say God endorsed or condoned or even the two men sought to have sex with one another.

We have to have some self control.

Many people reading the story of Jonathan and David have noticed an exceedingly strong emotional bond between the two men. I love the Bible. It takes so many human matters directly head on.

You can educate yourself a little bit below. What advantage do you think you get from arguing from a position of ignorance?

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female...
Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, while others may not identify themselves as either exclusively female or exclusively male.[1][2][3] Research has shown gender identity of intersex individuals to be independent of sexual orientation, though some intersex conditions also affect an individual's sexual orientation.

I don't mind admitting that I could be more educated. However, the above paragraph could simply be rationalizing the trend we already notice. That is the hype in entertainment and pop culture to go along with the homosexual agenda.

So I am willing to get more education about this. But I would sift out some self affirming rationalizations -

" Some individuals may be raised as a certain sex (male or female) but then identify with another later in life, "

Tell us about it. That's exactly the hype that is being propagandized. Hordes of men long to be women and visa versa. Unhappy, they just know the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. They should have been born another sex.

Some of this is self fulfilling propaganda you suggest as "education" for me.

Originally posted by sonship
[qs] You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender and sexual orientation aren't as "black and white" as depicted in the Bible? [/qs]

Are you now accepting Intelligent Design ?

I think th ...[text shortened]... another sex.

Some of this is self fulfilling propaganda you suggest as "education" for me.

You seem to not understand that the following is simply a biological fact:

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female... Because there is variation in all of the processes of the development of the sex organs, a child can be born with a sexual anatomy that is typically female or feminine in appearance with a larger-than-average clitoris (clitoral hypertrophy) typically male or masculine in appearance with a smaller-than-average penis that is open along the underside. The appearance may be quite ambiguous, describable as female genitals with a very large clitoris and partially fused labia, or as male genitals with a very small penis, completely open along the midline ("hypospadic" ), and empty scrotum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. The reality is that there is a continuum between male and female rather than a distinct dividing line. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender isn't as "black and white" as depicted in the Bible? Do you think it at all possible that sexual orientation similarly exists on a continuum?

Are you now accepting Intelligent Design ?
No, those are words you have used in this thread - hence the quotation marks.

You seem to believe that God limited His "design" to strictly males and females. The reality is that there is a continuum between male and female rather than a distinct dividing line. What about intersex individuals? Whose bodies are they "designed to complement"? Do you think it at all possible that gender isn't as "black and white" as depicted in the Bible? Do you think it at all possible that sexual orientation similarly exists on a continuum?

I believe that male or female is the norm.

As in my above example of Siamese twins, exceptional birth situations do occur.

These are not so widespread that a major social movement is justified to endorse same sex marriage, for example.

This is you wanting to rationalize a momentous grand social activism on a sparse few situations of atypical birth defects.

Originally posted by sonship
This is you wanting to rationalize a momentous grand social activism on a sparse few situations of atypical birth defects.

It isn't.

But if it was - would that not be justified? Fair? Just?

I must say your position sounds anything but Christian.

Anyone "not normal" watch out.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
It isn't.

But if it was - would that not be justified? Fair? Just?

I must say your position sounds anything but Christian.

Anyone "not normal" watch out.

gayness is not normal, if anything its a pure anomaly, a deviation from all that is natural, then again, we dare not say it for fear of vicious reprisals.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
gayness is not normal, if anything its a pure anomaly, a deviation from all that is natural, then again, we dare not say it for fear of vicious reprisals.

You just said it, and have continued to say it for as long as I can recall.

Originally posted by wolfgang59

It isn't.

But if it was - would that not be justified? Fair? Just?

I must say your position sounds anything but Christian.

Anyone "not normal" watch out.

If you don't think most medical doctors would consider Siamese twins to be an abnormal birth defect you would be wrong.

And genital malfunction or underdevelopment I think would also be considered an abnormal birth defect.

You want to drive a major upheaval in social norms going back thousands of years in human civilization justified upon very rare occurrences of genital abnormalities in birth.

My attitude allows for the realization that some birth defects may occur which medical knowledge may help. You however accuse me of an attitude of bigotry because I don't use such rare birth abnormalities as a rational to endorse millions of people to marry members of their own sex.

I think my attitude is compassionate and sober minded while yours is desperately biased.

Suppose large numbers of parents become persuaded that they are they're own children's sexual partners trapped inside bodies of parents? Suppose they are persuaded a mistake has been made in design and their soul is of a marriage partner of their children, but their bodies are unfortunately not correspondingly those of a parent ?

Then you will have rampant incest justified by a concept of a fluke disharmony between one's soul and one's body.

Do you think people should sexualize all human relationships ?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You just said it, and have continued to say it for as long as I can recall.

yes and look at the vicious attacks I have incurred to my personal dignity!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes and look at the vicious attacks I have incurred to my personal dignity!

You don't have any personal dignity to attack.