Originally posted by jaywill==============================
[b]===================
No body's got anything to say...So did somebody win?...Lol
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Contrary to RaJK999's remark he hasn't convinced me of anything. It is not as if I am not opened to sound reasoning if he would present some.
On this subject I have talked to some other people whose presentation of annhilation was n is the great extent Christ has gone to save us from that awful fate of eternal punishment.[/b]
Contrary to RaJK999's remark he hasn't convinced me of anything. It is not as if I am not opened to sound reasoning if he would present some.
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I should say "if he would present some reasoning more sound".
By the way. If I post a blank post it is usually because it was too hastily posted and I withdrew it for further consideration and/or prayer.
Originally posted by KellyJayEternal pleasure? Where you got that exression from?
I do not see any reason to reject one if you accept the other.
Besides, you suggest you do believe in eternal punishments since both
death or destruction if they last eternally are, well...eternal. I think that
your "nothing" for those that are innocent does not seem reasonable
to me but it isn't anything worth worrying about in my opinion.
Again, yo ...[text shortened]... ort life times now, why would
you accept one and reject the other in an eternal life?
Kelly
Did I say that? Is there such an expression in the Bible?
Herein lies the problem with many people.
The Bible says a specific thing with a specific meaning.
Changing one word, often changes the meaning very slightly.
So you go from eternal life to eternal happiness to eternal pleasure and then claim that if there is eternal pleasure then there must be eternal suffering as well. Hence the reason why its good to stick with what the Bible says. Not what you think it should say.
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm willing to back up, to just plain and simple eternal life if you want
Eternal pleasure? Where you got that exression from?
Did I say that? Is there such an expression in the Bible?
Herein lies the problem with many people.
The Bible says a specific thing with a specific meaning.
Changing one word, often changes the meaning very slightly.
So you go from eternal life to eternal happiness to eternal pleasure and then cla ...[text shortened]... nce the reason why its good to stick with what the Bible says. Not what you think it should say.
to discuss pure and simple scripture meanings behind the quality of
such a life, fine. Either way the point is that you still without this type
of discussion have an eternal life and eternal punishments we simply
now have a discussion on the quality of both.
Kelly
Originally posted by jaywillNo worries, we will hash it out some time soon.
Kellyjay,
You know I tend to be verbose and write real long posts. I don't mind explaining more but I think I need your help.
Perhaps if you explain a lttle of your reason for another view that might help to pinpoint where our areas of difference lie.
How can we break the problem down into smaller units ?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayOk. So for eternal life there is an abundance of detail of what that eternal life entails so there is no argument there.
I'm willing to back up, to just plain and simple eternal life if you want
to discuss pure and simple scripture meanings behind the quality of
such a life, fine. Either way the point is that you still without this type
of discussion have an eternal life and eternal punishments we simply
now have a discussion on the quality of both.
Kelly
Now I dont have the time just this minute but I cant remember the Bible using the term 'eternal punishments'. Does it? Is there a similar expression? There is the 'lake of fire' which Jaywill and I discussed. Basically the lake of fire burns for ever and ever but there is no mention of suffering forever.
Tell me a verse or two that claims (directly) that there is eternal suffering for people. Then well will go on to the verses that imply eternal suffering.
Originally posted by Rajk999Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Please point me to the passage in the Bible that makes such a statement and I will withdraw my argument. Bear in mind that Christ clearly said that souls die.
This scripture tells us that the soul that sin will die.
However.....
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).
The second part of the scripture above tells me the kind of death the soul will have if it sins.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, clearly you're getting very technical here and I marked it clearly in brackets that from a NON TECHNICAL point of view for me they basically mean the same in Hell, that is what the topic is, isn't it?
Basically, NO.
Eternal damnation and eternal suffering are two different things.
The first is death thats eternal and never to be reversed.
The second is eternal suffering which does not include death... suffering. You know what suffering is?
Maybe not.
Originally posted by NickstenSo you were claiming that God said 'souls live forever'. You have not produced a verse that supports your claim.
[b]Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
This scripture tells us that the soul that sin will die.
However.....
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dani ...[text shortened]... cond part of the scripture above tells me the kind of death the soul will have if it sins.[/b]
The fact is - Souls die. They dont live forever.
So you are wrong.
Originally posted by NickstenI repeat the simple fact that even a 5 year old can agree with :
Well, clearly you're getting very technical here and I marked it clearly in brackets that from a [b]NON TECHNICAL point of view for me they basically mean the same in Hell, that is what the topic is, isn't it?[/b]
Eternal damnation and eternal suffering are two different things.
End of story.
Rajk999 writes:
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Tell me a verse or two that claims (directly) that there is eternal suffering for people. Then well will go on to the verses that imply eternal suffering.
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First we can conclude that to be punished is a suffering.
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
First let us ask why is the punishment eternal punishment? The reason is that the instrument of punishment is itself eternal. That is discribed in verse 41.
"Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)
Because the fire, the means of punishment is never extinguished the punishment is likewise never extinguished. Eternal fire = eternal punishment.
If Rajk999 wants to object that the "eternal punishment" is not so then he should on equal grounds declare that the "eternal life" also is not so:
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
On what grounds does he affirm "eternal life" is to be taken liturally but "eternal punishment" used in the very same sentence is not ?
Knock yourself out guys! bibles which do not contain the pagan teaching of everlasting punishment
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
-New Testament in Modern Speech
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
-Concordant Literal Translation
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
-Young's Literal Translation
It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 26:46.
Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, wherewith one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age (and elsewhere) This Bible does not use the word "Hell" at all.
Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of the incorrect and quite frankly, blasphemous "everlasting punishment." This phrase "everlasting punishment," when one really thinks about it, renders the work of Christ worthless. It says that His forgiveness, His love, His grace, His mercy, the power of His blood, all these and more become limited when one translates "aionion kolasin" as "everlasting punishment."
"And these shall go away -abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
There are other Bible translations besides these which have either completely eliminated the concept of eternal punishment from their pages, or have made great strides towards wiping this pagan concept off God's Word. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment" and "Hell." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King's translators translations for words closer to the actual Greek and Hebrew meanings rather than "tradition." The word "Hell," for example, has almost completely disappeared from most translations in the Old Testament. It occurs in most translations only 11 to 14 times and not at all in many translations. The day will come when the pagan concept of "Hell" will no longer be found in any Bible translation. It wasn't in the original languages. The foundation of the Bible, that is, the Old Testament, knows of no such place. Why should we perpetuate Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Angle-Saxon mythology? This is where the concept came from. Here is where the word "Hell," the goddess of the underworld, came from. Leave it there. This idea does not belong on the previous pages of our Bibles.
source http://www.tentmaker.org/
Hell, pagan origin
Hel ("the Hidden" from the word hel,"to conceal) is the Norse goddess of the dead, ruler of the nine worlds of the Land of Mist, Niflheim or Niflhel, located in the far north-- a cold, damp place that is home to frost giants and dwarves. The name Hel was applied both to the Queen of the Underworld and the land itself, and it is thought that the land gave the Queen Her name. In the late Christianized form of the myth, when Hel became Hell, she was said to be the daughter of Loki, who was equated with Lucifer.
Jesus Christ clearly taught us that non-existence would be preferable to Judas rather than the punishment that he is to undergo:
"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt.26:24)
In this case for Judas to have not been born would mean his un-existence. But Judas was born. And he did commit the awful sin of betraying the Son of Man.
The teaching of annhilation assumes that Judas will be punished by becoming as if he were never born. It teaches that God will cause Judas to some day be non-existent as a punishment.
According to the Lord's word non-existence for Judas should be considered not a punishment but a desireable merciful alternative to what he must endure.
"It would have been good for that man if he had never been born."
Becomming as if he had never been born, ie. annhilation is something that Judas will therefore never attain. And the theory of Rajk999 and Robbie is exposed as fallen man's wishful thinking.
Annhilation to non-existence would be an alleviation of the pain of Judas's punishment. There is no hint in Matthew 26:24 that he will attain to this preferable alleviation.
Who are you going to believe, Rajk999 and Robbie or Jesus Christ ? I am going to believe Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by jaywillWell well...Its kind of a shock to here someone really say that. NO. Punishment is not necessarily suffering. Sounds like you never really had to deal with anyone like children or students or young people of any kind.
Rajk999 writes:
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Tell me a verse or two that claims (directly) that there is eternal suffering for people. Then well will go on to the verses that imply eternal suffering.
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First we can conclude that to be punished is a suffering.
"And these shall liturally but [b]"eternal punishment" used in the very same sentence is not ?[/b][/b]
Every time a parent punishes a child, is there suffering? When a student or employee is punished, is there also suffering? Do you really have to SUFFER someone to punish them ? Even in the worse case scenario of the most extreme punishment - the death penalty - every effort is made by most countries to minimise suffering or even eliminate it. Death is swift and painless. Even in prisons every effort is made to minimise suffering.
So is God or Christ less compassionate than mankind? The Bible states very clearly that the consequences of sin is death. That means spiritual as well as physical death. Christ also states that God can kill both body and soul in hell. At what point does death come in your scenario of eternal suffering ? If the person dies in the lake of fire, suffering ends. Your view is that evil people will live forever in this fire. Then God did not kill the person in hell, the person lives on.
Originally posted by jaywillActually you not believing Jesus Christ.
... Who are you going to believe, Rajk999 and Robbie or [b]Jesus Christ ? I am going to believe Jesus Christ.[/b]
You are changing His words and substituting your own.
He said 'eternal punishment' and you changed it to 'eternal suffering'