14 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillJudas will suffer. There is suffering in the punishment in the lake of fire. But the suffering is not eternal. Death comes at some point. The Bible does not say how long evildoers will suffer but the suffering is not eternal. Hell could burn forever and the lake of fire forever, but you cant assume that because the fire is burning forever, people are necessarily suffering in there.
Jesus Christ clearly taught us that non-existence would be preferable to Judas rather than the punishment that he is to undergo:
[b]"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt.26:24)
In this c lieve, Rajk999 and Robbie or Jesus Christ ? I am going to believe Jesus Christ.[/b]
The punishment is eternal. The death is eternal and final in the lake of fire. That was a necessary statement since MAN CAN KILL, but that death is not eternal. When God kills, then that death is eternal.
15 Jun 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Rakj999 writes,
Judas will suffer. There is suffering in the punishment in the lake of fire. But the suffering is not eternal. Death comes at some point. The Bible does not say how long evildoers will suffer but the suffering is not eternal. Hell could burn forever and the lake of fire forever, but you cant assume that because the fire is burning forever, people are necessa ...[text shortened]... t since MAN CAN KILL, but that death is not eternal. When God kills, then that death is eternal.
===========================
Judas will suffer. There is suffering in the punishment in the lake of fire. But the suffering is not eternal. Death comes at some point.
=============================
This view is actually an accomodation created to avoid the difficulties of immediate annhilation after judgment. They realized that they could not argue for immediately annhilation so a variation was concocted.
They say "Okay, the lost do indeed suffer in the lake of fire, but one day these cease to exist. After some unknown amount of time they are annhilated into non-existence."
In the case of Matthew 26:24 " it would have been good for that man if he had not been born. "
Not being born would render Judas insensitive to suffering. If Judas is annhilated after some unspecified amount of time then he will be non-existent and it will be for him as if he were not born.
The Lord's word is that it would have been good that Judas were non-existent however, what would be good is not going to be the case.
In taking this view Rajk999 has adopted TWO methods of punishment from God.
1.) Judas will be punished with the pains of the lake of fire.
2.) Judas will be punished further with annhilation. After all the soul that sins will die. So God's killing of his soul (ie. making him non-existent Rajk999 style) is the second punishment.
It should be noted that non-existent things cannot be punished. What does not exist cannot be punished.
It should be noted that Jesus implied that for Judas to not exist would be a desireable alternative. That would mean that he would long for it. Longing for it, in Rajk999's view would thus be Judas longing for punishment.
Rajk999 has backed himself into a corner. He has Judas in the lake of fire longing for the punishment of annhilation.
To prove that death can be longed for as an escape to punishment we only need to read Revelation 9:3-6
"And out of the smoke came forth locusts to the earth, and to them power was given, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (v.3)
And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. (v.5)
And in those days men will seek death and shall by no means find it; and the will long to die, and death flees from them." (v.6)
These sinners long to die to escape the pain of God's judgment. They probably think that non-existence would be a relief from their torments. God however causes death to allude them. He forces them to suffer for five months.
Here God forces these unrepentent sinners to endure judgment. He will not allow their concept of annhilation be an escape route. We should not be astounded then that for Judas non-existence is something which he will not attain. It would be good if he was as never born. But that will not be the case forever.
=======================
The Bible does not say how long evildoers will suffer but the suffering is not eternal. Hell could burn forever and the lake of fire forever, but you cant assume that because the fire is burning forever, people are necessarily suffering in there.
=========================
Now this is a little involved.
I do not assume here that there is no one who could temporarily be hurt by the lake of fire. I do notice that it specifically says that some will be there forever. So that I must accept.
I have an errand to run. We will examine the aionian issue of Gary Amirault (tentmaker), a staunch Universalist as ever I met.
I have conversed with him on the Internet in the past.
15 Jun 09
"""""In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King's translators translations for words closer to the actual Greek and Hebrew meanings rather than "tradition." The word "Hell," for example, has almost completely disappeared from most translations in the Old Testament. It occurs in most translations only 11 to 14 times and not at all in many translations. The day will come when the pagan concept of "Hell" will no longer be found in any Bible translation. It wasn't in the original languages. The foundation of the Bible, that is, the Old Testament, knows of no such place. Why should we perpetuate Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Angle-Saxon mythology? This is where the concept came from. Here is where the word "Hell," the goddess of the underworld, came from. Leave it there. This idea does not belong on the previous pages of our Bibles.""""
How can you guys that still believe in a burning Hell not get it? It's unbelieveable... The Bible dioes not teach it, never has, never will and all proof shows it has pagan origins!!!!
15 Jun 09
5 edits
Originally posted by galveston75I see the summary as irrelevent because the issue is really not the word hell. To people who loosely use the term hell that may be intimidating information. But to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
"""""In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King ach it, never has, never will and all proof shows it has pagan origins!!!!
More at issue is the phrase forever and ever or aionas ton aionon
The concluding word abnout the lake of fire "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
1.) The phrase implies not only existence but consciousness as well.
This is because without consciousness there can be no torment.
2.) "day and night" is a proverbial expression for uninterruptedness, no cessation.
3.) "for ever and ever"
In the Old Testament it is appled to
the duration of God's supremacy and kingdom (Exo.15:18; Psa. 10:1-6; Dan. 7:18)
the throne and life of Messiah (Psa. 45:6 Compare to Hebrews 1:8)
the perpetuity of God's work, warnings and precepts (Psa.111:7,8; 104:5; Isa. 30:18)
the duty of keeping the law (Psa 119:44)
praise that is due to God forever (Psa 45:17; 145:1,2,21; Dan. 2:20)
the duty and blessedness of trust in God (Psa. 48:14; 52:8; Mic. 4:5)
the reward of leading others to fear God (Dan, 12:3)
In the New Testament we find it in "Thy throne, O God is unto the age of the age" Compare Psalm 45:17 LXX quoted exactly in Hebrews 1:8. The sense of the Hebrew is everlastingness. Any alternative view would be to interpret that the Almighty will one day abdicate His throne.
In the Epistles eis tous aionas ton aionon is used seven times in ascribing glory, honour, praise, anddominion unto God (Gal.1:5; Phil. 4:10; i tim. 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 13:21; i Peter 4:11; 5:11).
The same phrase of absoluteness is used 11 times in the book of Revelation (1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7) There it refers to:
life,
glory,
sovereignty,
worship of God and the Lamb
In all these instances it cannot mean anyting besides unlimited duration.
The expression "unto the ages of the ages" expresses endlessness
The smoke of their torment goes up unto ages of ages - "eis aionas aionon". Sometimes it appears without the article. To the modern Greek speaker the phrase we read as forever would mean eternally. It would be even more emphatic than forever and ever.
Both phrases carry the full force of endlessness with the utmost impressiveness.
15 Jun 09
Originally posted by jaywillBut to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
I see the summary as irrelevent because the issue is really not the word [b]hell. To people who loosely use the term hell that may be intimidating information. But to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
More at issue is the phrase forever and ever or aionas ton aionon
The c ...[text shortened]...
Both phrases carry the full force of endlessness with the utmost impressiveness.[/b]
i would say that this is the most incredulous statement that i have heard for ages, and in fact, I would say the opposite is true, for with the interpolation of this word, the pagan idea is intrinsically carried and thus the ideology and imagery that comes with it!
15 Jun 09
5 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie wants to give the impression that only those versions of the English New Testament which soften the force of perpetuity in Matthew 25:41 are the ONLY translators not swayed by "tradition"[/b]. These alone, who see "age abiding" and temporary punishment are the ones supposedly professional and caring about the sense of the Greek language.
But to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
i would say that this is the most incredulous statement that i have heard for ages, and in fact, I would say the opposite is true, for with the interpolation of this word, the pagan idea is intrinsically carried and thus the ideology and imagery that comes with it!
I consider that argument as slanderous and absurd.
For starters my Weymouth NT (Fifth Edition) reads:
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:41)
John Nelson Darby's New Translation has it:
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous into life eternal"
Darby, a reputable Brethren scholar, is held in high regard as a translator of both Hebrew and Greek.
I can't find my 1901 American Standard at the moment which I often consult when I want a "wooden" translation. That means one that sacrifices good sounding English for the sake of the force of the original language expression.
But even the NIV Intelinear Greek - English gives us:
"Then he will say also to the [ones] on [the] left: Go from me having been cursed [ones] into the fire eternal ... (v.41)
"And will go away these into punishment eternal, but the righteous into life eternal" (v.46)
Robbie, in short, portraying that only those whose renderings could conceivably be utilized by Universalist doctrine of no everlasting suffering, are the ones free of traditional prejudice, will not impress me.
Now, the blame for the concept of "eternal punishment" has to placed at the feet of the same Person whom we call Merciful, Friend of sinners, Great Physician, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Be clear that God reserved this solemn warning to be spoken by the same mouth that gave us so much comfort, kindness, and hope.
Jesus is the utterer of the words in Matthew 25. So you have to blame the concept of the teaching of eternal fire and eternal punishment on none other than Jesus Christ.
The issue of whether eternal punishment (ie. eternal fire) is biblical is not related to the vanacular and sloppy street usage of the word hell.
I found your little etymological study similar to saying that the concept of the Devil is invalid because there is no guy in a red jump suit with two horns and a pitch fork. And then you go on to trace the backround of such an image.
I am not concerned with popular imagery or the fiction of Dante or Milton. I am concerned with what the New Testament teaches. So I think more to the issue than where the typical vanacular usage of "hell" come from, is the issue of the Greek language in expressing "eternal fire" or "eternal punishment."
15 Jun 09
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie===================================
But to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
i would say that this is the most incredulous statement that i have heard for ages, and in fact, I would say the opposite is true, for with the interpolation of this word, the pagan idea is intrinsically carried and thus the ideology and imagery that comes with it!
I would say the opposite is true, for with the interpolation of this word, the pagan idea is intrinsically carried and thus the ideology and imagery that comes with it!
=================================
If I have not made myself clear above let me put it this way.
For the Discussion What do you think about "Hell" the words origin and various uses may be of interest.
For consulting with what the Bible teaches about judgment and punishement of those not saved in a careful and biblical way, it is not really important.'
I do not tell people "If you are not saved you will die and go to hell." I tell people "Actually, Hell is Hades, as a realm of the departed dead. Everyone who dies, strictly speaking is going to hell or Hades."
The lake of fire or "eternal fire" or "eternal punishment" is what should be of real interest to you, sir. And through the believing into Jesus Christ we can be saved from that eternal destiny.
Now, if you Robbie teach that there is no eternal punishment you will strengthen the resolve of those who have no intention of allowing Jesus to be their Lord anyway. Your teaching will encourage them that they will win in the end. At worst they will get a scolding lecture from the Judge and be zapped out of consciousness, insensitive forever to any "punishment" other than non-existence.
Maybe some people will say that they are more inclined to love Jesus because there is no eternal suffering from His hand. But that does not make it right to teach something which the Bible does not.
If you say, "You will be tormented only for a temporary time. And then you will be punished with non-existence" I am not sure you are portraying God any more reasonable. It sounds fickle and arbitrary and I don't think a lot of people will accept it. Rather with a casual reading of Matthew or some other Gospel they will detect your attempt to make a awful prospect spoken by Jesus somehow more palatable.
It is better to simply tell them the truth. It is better to impress them that God has gone to such an extent as coming in Christ to save us from such a fate.
I think your underestimating the horrors of eternal damnation go along with your underestimating Who Jesus is and what Jesus has done for man.
15 Jun 09
""""For consulting with what the Bible teaches about judgment and punishement of those not saved in a careful and biblical way, it is not really important.' """
What is this? Why isn't it important? The Bible makes it very clear that righteous as well as the unrighteous will be resurrected. All life is very important to God and it should be to you too....
I can't believe you'd say that. You should be ashamed....
15 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75===========================
""""For consulting with what the Bible teaches about judgment and punishement of those not saved in a careful and biblical way, it is not really important.' """
What is this? Why isn't it important? The Bible makes it very clear that righteous as well as the unrighteous will be resurrected. All life is very important to God and it should be to you too....
I can't believe you'd say that. You should be ashamed....
What is this? Why isn't it important? The Bible makes it very clear that righteous as well as the unrighteous will be resurrected.
===================================
That is not a detail that I have neglected in sharing with people where history is going.
You seem to be saying that I am obscuring that matter. So I guess you are losing me here.
=============================
All life is very important to God and it should be to you too....
I can't believe you'd say that. You should be ashamed....
==================================
That life is very important is also an aspect of God's plan I would not be neglecting. So I have not followed you.
16 Jun 09
"""That is not a detail that I have neglected in sharing with people where history is going.
You seem to be saying that I am obscuring that matter. So I guess you are losing me here.""""
It's seems buy what your saying is that since you believe your saved and others aren't that they are not worth yours or anyones time and effort to worry about.....
What makes you think you are saved? What "qualifications" according to the Bible makes you think you have earned that and the "respondsibilites" that comes with it? What actions have you done that could possibly save you? According to Matt 24:13 your not at the end of your life to earn anything yet.
The problem is that you and many others are very confused as to who these scriptures apply to. Jesus was talking to only a certian few on this earth who can gain this salvation. It does not apply to the vast majority of humans, and I know it does not apply to me.
16 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDeal with the text he presented or leave it alone, you offer nothing,
But to the careful Bible reader the etymology of the word hell is not really the issue.
i would say that this is the most incredulous statement that i have heard for ages, and in fact, I would say the opposite is true, for with the interpolation of this word, the pagan idea is intrinsically carried and thus the ideology and imagery that comes with it!
but no no no with nothing to back your point outside your statement
you believe his statement to be incredulous.
Kelly
16 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75It is very simple Jesus is going to tell those that know Him to come
"""That is not a detail that I have neglected in sharing with people where history is going.
You seem to be saying that I am obscuring that matter. So I guess you are losing me here.""""
It's seems buy what your saying is that since you believe your saved and others aren't that they are not worth yours or anyones time and effort to worry about..... ...[text shortened]... does not apply to the vast majority of humans, and I know it does not apply to me.
and those that He doesn't know to depart from Him. So if you are
going your merry way without Christ in your life, you know where you
will fall out, if you have Christ in your life you are already there.
Kelly
16 Jun 09
Originally posted by KellyJayAlready where??
It is very simple Jesus is going to tell those that know Him to come
and those that He doesn't know to depart from Him. So if you are
going your merry way without Christ in your life, you know where you
will fall out, if you have Christ in your life you are already there.
Kelly