What we believe in...

Originally posted by FMF
Are you saying that slavery is still permitted? I have never heard of any Christians condemning the fact that it is illegal almost everywhere in the world. If you believe it is still permitted, why not just say so.

you are saying that its not, EVIDENCE NIL! such a complete time waster.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are saying that its not, EVIDENCE NIL! such a complete time waster.

Do you believe slavery is still permitted?

What a bizarre corner you have backed yourself into!

No. Personally, I don't think that slavery being permitted in OT times has anything whatsoever to do with "God".

It sounds like you mean that either way, either by command to do so (endorsement) or permitiong to do so (provision) - neither one have anything to do with God's speaking anything.

Is that your thought? God didn't endorse it OR make permissive allowance for it. God was just not involved one way or another.

Is that it?

I think it was a man made code. It was the way things were, and the literature of that time reflects it.

If so the Levitical laws had some more human treatment of slaves then many sorrounding ANE cultures.

To be fair, I think some parellels have been brought to my attention. They were brought to my attention by Christian apologists familiar with other ANE codes.

But instances of superior and more human social justice were also pointed out to me in the Lecitical laws as compared to other ANE codes.


The whole matter of God speaking invokes with some people a notion that contemporary style should not be used.

The OT contains poetry, wisdom, history, military history, and other forms of writing which are common to human society. I don't regard a book by God necessarily not having the signs of human style.

The ten commandments it says, were written by the finger of God. But much else bares the hallmarks of personal or cultural styles. A book by God doesn't have to come floating down from the clouds with its own wings and be in a style not recognizable to human beings.

Anyway, I suppose I take the OT as God's speaking chiefly because Christ apparently took it that way. I came to the Old Testament through the teaching of Jesus and the New Testament for the greater part.

Just as it is the widespread existence of different man made codes that means slavery is no longer permitted in almost every place on earth nowadays and is not advocated by Christians.

I don't think it is only Christians whose consciences can be touched. Man, in general is God's creation. And He created man with a conscience.

Moral conviction upon the God created human conscience can come from more corners than JUST the Christian Bible.

To some degree Concfucius who has nothing to do with the Bible, can teach something to convict people's consciences.

To some degree Buddha who has nothing to do with the Bible, might also sensatize people's consiences to a certain moral issue.

So I would not submit that ONLY Bible readers were repulsed by slavery.
I do believe that the God created concience is within all of His created humans.

Your attempts to explain and justify the OT condoning/permitting/endorsing slavery in the context of them being "God's instructions" are actually very interesting to read and no one on this site has come anywhere doing it with the same degree of nuance that you have, at least not in the 7 years I have been here.

I consider that something of a humbling compliment. I try to be fair to the difficult issues. Some of these matters are not easy. They need careful examination.

Thanks. If anyone wants to read more from a Christian's perspective I would recommend a book -

"Is God a Moral Monster - Making Sense of the Old Testament God" by Paul Coupon.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you believe slavery is still permitted?

What a bizarre corner you have backed yourself into!

I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, you have provided your opinions as some kind of substantiating evidence for your ludicrous claims of Gods changeability, haha, what a jive turkey, and no amount of your usual bilge can negate the fact. You could not even tell us which laws have changed, despite your assertions, you could not even tell us where it is written that slavery has changed, all we have is the usual, it must be true because i say its true, the summation of your spirituality, well, gee, thanks for nuthin.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, you have provided your opinions as some kind of substantiating evidence for your ludicrous claims of Gods changeability, haha, what a jive turkey, and no amount of your usual bilge can negate the fact. You could not even tell us which laws have changed, despite your assertions, you could not even tell ...[text shortened]... e true because i say its true, the summation of your spirituality, well, gee, thanks for nuthin.

Is there a particular reason why you cannot bring yourself to answer the question: Do you believe slavery is still permitted by your version of God?

Originally posted by FMF
Is there a particular reason why you cannot bring yourself to answer the question: Do you believe slavery is still permitted by your version of God?

I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, you may make reference to that, you have provided, NADA! Is there some reason you cannot demonstrate where Gods laws have changed?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, you may make reference to that, you have provided, NADA!

OK, then I will refer to the Bible. According to your own understanding of the Bible, do you believe slavery is still permitted? We have established that it was permitted in OT times. Is it still permitted do you think?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Is there some reason you cannot demonstrate where Gods laws have changed?

I have demonstrated that slavery was once permitted by your God figure and that it is not permitted now. That is the "change" I have demonstrated.

Originally posted by FMF
I have demonstrated that slavery was once permitted by your God figure and that it is not permitted now. That is the "change" I have demonstrated.

figure? bwhahaha, thats brilliant! were any laws changed during this metamorphosis?

Originally posted by FMF
OK, then I will refer to the Bible. According to your own understanding of the Bible, do you believe slavery is still permitted? We have established that it was permitted in OT times. Is it still permitted do you think?

I have provided the Bibles point of view, you may make reference to the article.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
figure? bwhahaha, thats brilliant! were any laws changed during this metamorphosis?

your God figure = your version of God

metamorphosis = change

Is slavery still permitted by your God figure in the same way as it was permitted in OT times?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have provided the Bibles point of view, you may make reference to the article.

According to your own understanding of the Bible, do you believe slavery is still permitted?

Originally posted by FMF
your God figure = your version of God

metamorphosis = change

Is slavery still permitted by your God figure in the same way as it was permitted in OT times?

I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, please make reference to the article.

Originally posted by FMF
According to your own understanding of the Bible, do you believe slavery is still permitted?

permitted? as among Gods servants? or among the populace as a whole?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have provided the Bibles viewpoint on slavery, please make reference to the article.

What is your view of whether or not slavery is permitted, according to your understanding of the Bible? It's not clear why you are unwilling to state your beliefs on this matter.