I would like to know how it's the same logic.
Really? I think it's pretty easy. You claim that a universe had to have a cause because everything had to have a cause. When some one pointed out that this means that your god had to have a cause, your excuse is that your god is "outside of time" and therefore causation does not apply to him. Then I pointed out that the universe itself contains time, that is spacetime, and thus it would also be "outside of time." From this your initial claim that the universe had to have a beginning does not hold.
God has intelligence. The universe does not.
The first statement is contingent on your god existing, but we'll let that one slide. The second one is false. The universe does have intelligence. Humans and animals with brains are all part of the universe. These parts of the universe have intelligence, thus the universe has intelligence.
There had to be a spark for a non-intelligence to perform intelligently, not the same for an already intelligent being.
Absurd. Basically, you've fled from the untenable "all things have to have a cause, except one thing which is my god," to the equally asinine "all intelligent things have to have a cause, except one intelligent thing which is my god."
It's question-begging no matter how many adjectives you put on it. This is especially apparent when you use words like "spark." You should take some philosophy classes.
Now you see why you got spanked at infidels. You couldn't even stay within the broad context of their forums! It's ok, I would have been embarassed if I were you too. You know, I think Kent Hovind needs a philosophical cosmologist at his theme park. You're probably just the thing he's looking for!
Really? I think it's pretty easy. You claim that a universe had to have a cause because everything had to have a cause. When some one pointed out that this means that your god had to have a cause, your excuse is that your god is "outside of time" and therefore causation does not apply to him. Then I pointed out that the universe itself contains time, that is spacetime, and thus it would also be "outside of time." From this your initial claim that the universe had to have a beginning does not hold.
You are not following. Everything within the universe had to have a cause. This is consistent with our laws of physics. Are you saying the universe exists outside of itself? My claim is that God lives outside of the universe and therefore need not adhere to the laws pf physics. Which includes needing a cause.
The first statement is contingent on your god existing, but we'll let that one slide. The second one is false. The universe does have intelligence. Humans and animals with brains are all part of the universe. These parts of the universe have intelligence, thus the universe has intelligence.
And your stance is contingent on humans and animals spontaneously generating intelligence rather than being given it. You, of course, have no proof of this claim. Unless you would like to argue from the finished product as I am doing and admit you require as much faith as I do?
Absurd. Basically, you've fled from the untenable "all things have to have a cause, except one thing which is my god," to the equally asinine "all intelligent things have to have a cause, except one intelligent thing which is my god."
You're right, I should have stuck with all things need a cause. I think I shall.
It's question-begging no matter how many adjectives you put on it. This is especially apparent when you use words like "spark." You should take some philosophy classes.
And you should brush up on physics. The universe isn't outside of the universe.
Now you see why you got spanked at infidels. You couldn't even stay within the broad context of their forums! It's ok, I would have been embarassed if I were you too. You know, I think Kent Hovind needs a philosophical cosmologist at his theme park. You're probably just the thing he's looking for!
Here you just degenerated into insults. I shall await intelligent, mature responses.
Originally posted by DarfiusLast post to you, Dar.
[b]Really? I think it's pretty easy. You claim that a universe had to have a cause because everything had to have a cause. When some one pointed out that this means that your god had to have a cause, your excuse is that your god is "outside of time" and therefore causation does not apply to him. Then I pointed out that the universe itself contains tim ...[text shortened]... or!
Here you just degenerated into insults. I shall await intelligent, mature responses.[/b]
You are not following. Everything within the universe had to have a cause. This is consistent with our laws of physics. Are you saying the universe exists outside of itself? (emphasis mine)
If the rules say everything within the universe -- including spacetime-- must have a cause, how does it follow that the universe itself must have a cause. I am not saying that the universe is outside the universe. You are implying that the universe is within the universe.
Originally posted by telerionNo, I'm, saying that the universe is a tangible thing and all tangible things need causes. Intagible things do not. They just need discovery.
Last post to you, Dar.
[b]You are not following. Everything within the universe had to have a cause. This is consistent with our laws of physics. Are you saying the universe exists outside of itself? (emphasis mine)
If the rules say everything within the universe -- including spacetime-- must have a cause, how does it follow that ...[text shortened]... is outside the universe. You are implying that the universe is within the universe.
[/b]
Face it, it takes more faith to believe that a singularity (that has always existed) spontaneously blew up than to believe God is responsible for all. It is just your bias against the supernatural that stops you. Remember, supernatural does NOT mean magic. It means above the laws of physics that we know.
Originally posted by DarfiusHere you raise another point which I was hoping somebody would make so that I could mention a 4th reason why God is an empty concept:
Why would God need a creator? If He created the universe, then clearly His powers and attributes are beyond our understanding. And if He created the universe (including space and TIME) then time is not a restriction for Him. It helps to think of Him as a spiritual being rather than physical. By the way, we already know the universe isn't infinite (Big B ...[text shortened]... h school. If anything, I felt peer-pressure to live a life full of sin. That theory sucks.
4. If God is ethereal and timeless, how can he possibly interact with the physical universe?
This should be a self-explanatory problem which anybody with the most rudimentary grasp of physics can understand. Therefore I will explain it for you Darfius.
Only physical entities can interact with other physical entities. Purely ethereal bodies have no mass and therefore cannot exert forces such or gravitational pull on other objects.
If God is timeless, then he cannot change in any way. Thus if he touched a fire, then he could not get burnt or decay. By the same token he cannot "draw" heat away from the flame because he is not physical. He is not affected by, nor affects anything, hence he cannot alter even the smallest physical phenomenon and is completely impotent with regard to the physical universe.
Originally posted by howardgeeJust so I know, where did you get these rules of yours on what can
Here you raise another point which I was hoping somebody would make so that I could mention a 4th reason why God is an empty concept:
4. If God is ethereal and timeless, how can he possibly interact with the physical universe?
This should be a self-explanatory problem which anybody with the most rudimentary grasp of physics can understand. Therefo ...[text shortened]... he smallest physical phenomenon and is completely impotent with regard to the physical universe.
and cannot happen with a God and the physical universe? You know
these things because you....?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayTry reading my above post KellyJay.
Just so I know, where did you get these rules of yours on what can
and cannot happen with a God and the physical universe? You know
these things because you....?
Kelly
Perhaps you could explain how an ethereal, Ghost-like entity such as God could interact with a physical universe.
Originally posted by howardgeeYou seem to be the one in the know here, I'm asking for your source.
Try reading my above post KellyJay.
Perhaps you could explain how an ethereal, Ghost-like entity such as God could interact with a physical universe.
If you have one, or are we just seeing your thoughts on the matter
which are not the same things as facts now, correct?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIt is rudimentary physics.
You seem to be the one in the know here, I'm asking for your source.
If you have one, or are we just seeing your thoughts on the matter
which are not the same things as facts now, correct?
Kelly
Look at any text book on the subject and enlighten yourself.
Briefly:
1. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
2. Every action requires a force to be applied.
3. F = ma. (Force = Mass x Acceleration)
4. Ethereal non-physical bodies have no mass.
5. God is an ethereal body.
Thus the force which God can apply = 0 x acceleration = 0.
Therefore God cannot exert any force upon Physical bodies, hence he cannot alter the universe in any way whatsoever.
Originally posted by howardgeeDoes gravity have a body, magnetism, electricity?
It is rudimentary physics.
Look at any text book on the subject and enlighten yourself.
Briefly:
1. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
2. Every action requires a force to be applied.
3. F = ma. (Force = Mass x Acceleration)
4. Ethereal non-physical bodies have no mass.
5. God is an ethereal body.
Thus the force which God ...[text shortened]... exert any force upon Physical bodies, hence he cannot alter the universe in any way whatsoever.
These are forces of different types, why again
would you say that another type of force or power
cannot react with, or in our universe with us? I
would also remind you God created the universe
and also appeared to people in different forms
As well. He isn’t limited.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYou display such a lack of understanding, that it is frightening. No wonder you are religious!
Does gravity have a body, magnetism, electricity?
These are forces of different types, why again
would you say that another type of force or power
cannot react with, or in our universe with us? I
would also remind you God created the universe
and also appeared to people in different forms
As well. He isn’t limited.
Kelly
1. Gravity does not have a body: Gravity is the force pulling 2 bodies together.
2. Magnetism is the force exerted by polarized atoms.
3. Electricity is the flow of electrons.
Did you go to school KellyJay?
Thank you for "reminding me that God created the universe". I remind you that God is an empty concept and does not exist. I also encourage you to read my original post in this thread before making such glib comments.
Originally posted by howardgeeYou said, "Ethereal non-physical bodies have no mass.
You display such a lack of understanding, that it is frightening. No wonder you are religious!
1. Gravity does not have a body: Gravity is the force pulling 2 bodies together.
2. Magnetism is the force exerted by polarized atoms.
3. Electricity is the flow of electrons.
Did you go to school KellyJay?
Thank you for "reminding me that God ...[text shortened]... lso encourage you to read my original post in this thread before making such glib comments.
Looking at your logic non-physical bodies shouldn't have the ability
to react with us, I'm simpy pointed out your error. You also do not
know the properties, the limitations of a spiritual being to know
how reactions occur, you simply are making up what you think is
the way it is and stating it as a fact. I asked where you got your
facts you gave me what you did, nothing other than what is between
your ears.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay"Looking at your logic non-physical bodies shouldn't have the ability
You said, "[b]Ethereal non-physical bodies have no mass.
Looking at your logic non-physical bodies shouldn't have the ability
to react with us, I'm simpy pointed out your error. You also do not
know the properties, the limitations of a spiritual being to know
how reactions occur, you simply are making up what you think is
the way it is and stati ...[text shortened]... got your
facts you gave me what you did, nothing other than what is between
your ears.
Kelly[/b]
to react with us" This is correct!
"I'm simpy pointed out your error" There is no error. Atoms and Electrons have mass!
Rather than just accusing me of producing facts such as these from between my ears, why don't you read any science book and learn the facts for yourself. Then the facts will be at your finger tips, just as they are with any person who has educated themselves properly, not from a fairy tale such as the bible.
Originally posted by howardgeeIn a word you have nothing but your opinion, so you say go look it
"Looking at your logic non-physical bodies shouldn't have the ability
to react with us" This is correct!
"I'm simpy pointed out your error" There is no error. Atoms and Electrons have mass!
Rather than just accusing me of producing facts such as these from between my ears, why don't you read any science book and learn the facts for yoursel ...[text shortened]... with any person who has educated themselves properly, not from a fairy tale such as the bible.
up. You made the claims and if you cannot defend them, just say so
and move on.
Kelly