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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    15 Nov '17 03:293 edits
    There's an iconic photo of an incident in New York City's Times Square,
    celebrating the end of the Second World War on 14 August 1945.
    It was published in 'Life' magazine with this caption:
    "In New York's Times Square a white-clad girl clutches her purse and
    skirt as an uninhibited sailor plants his lips squarely on hers.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square

    ",,,a photograph by Alfred Eisenstaedt that portrays a U.S. Navy sailor
    grabbing and kissing a stranger—a woman in a white dress—on Victory over
    Japan Day ("V-J Day" ) in New York City's Times Square on August 14, 1945."

    Afterward, at least several men and women claimed to have been in the photo.
    The woman has been most likely identified as Greta Zimmer Friedman (who was not a nurse).
    The man's identity seems far less clear, with several candidates.

    Given that the man used force to seize a woman and kiss her without her consent,
    pressing himself close against her, this act would be considered sexual assault today.

    "Art critic Michael Kimmelman summarized the composition in 1997 as
    reflective of that mood: the sailor representing returning troops, the nurse to
    represent those who would welcome them home, and Times Square stood for home.
    Since then, bloggers in the 2010s have called the photo a sexual assault.
    Drunk at the time of the photograph, the sailor is shown kissing an unwilling partner.
    Combined with the humorous expressions on the bystanders, the sailor's
    firm grasp of the nurse, these details are emblematic of a time when
    women were "subordinated to men" or of a "rape culture".[32]"

    How should this photo--and the historical moment that it recorded--be
    perceived in a modern culture that may be becoming more sensitive to
    the many ways in which women are sexually harassed or assaulted?
  2. Standard memberHandyAndy
    Non sum qualis eram
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    15 Nov '17 03:581 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There's an iconic photo of an incident in New York City's Times Square,
    celebrating the end of the Second World War on 14 August 1945.
    It was published in 'Life' magazine with this caption:
    "In New York's Times Square a white-clad girl clutches her purse and
    skirt as an uninhibited sailor plants his lips squarely on hers.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org ...[text shortened]... be becoming more sensitive to
    the many ways in which women are sexually harassed or assaulted?
    Eisenstaedt's photo should be judged by how appropriately it represents that historic moment in 1945.
    By today's standards, the sailor is seen as opportunistic and intrusive. Principles and attitudes have
    changed somewhat in 70 years, hopefully for the better.
  3. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    15 Nov '17 06:43
    I always thought it looked staged.
    Either that or they were reunited lovers.

    Even at the time, just grabbing people and sticking your tongue down their throats was rather frowned upon.

    At the same time, however, when the war ended there was massive relief. Especially in Europe. And when there's relief and alcohol, things get a bit wild. I'm not on about abuse, but I'm on about a general abundance of people doing things they normally wouldn't.

    If you watch films from the 50's and 60's (and indeed Indiana Jones and James Bond movies up till Brosnan) you constantly see images of men taking the initiative by grabbing women and kissing them... and them ultimately submitting to the hero. Or aggressor.
    In that context, a photo like this is just part of the culture at the time. The culture as projected by the media.
    I'm not entirely sure if true culture (outside of the media fantasy) was anything like it. I presume most people still asked if it was alright to kiss someone for the first time.

    And then... and this is probably more contentious than the photo itself... I think there's a big difference between grabbing and kissing a stranger in a friendly drunken mood and raping someone. Like I think there's a difference between pinching someone's bum in a friendly manner (like what old women used to do in a pub I worked when I was in my early twenties: "Oh love, thank you very much for the bitter." *pinch*), wobbling someone's genitals as a joke or seriously pinching someone's earlobe to make a point as you shout at them.

    In my view only one of the three is actual abuse. The other two are boundaries which may or not be crossed: tender cultural weirdness or misplaced humor. The intent is not to intimidate or actually feel someone up.
  4. Joined
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    15 Nov '17 09:08
    Originally posted by @handyandy
    Eisenstaedt's photo should be judged by how appropriately it represents that historic moment in 1945.
    By today's standards, the sailor is seen as opportunistic and intrusive. Principles and attitudes have
    changed somewhat in 70 years, hopefully for the better.
    no, it should be judged by today's standards.
    everything is judged by the present standards otherwise we would look at pictures of slavery or massacres and go, hmm, quite, well, there were different standards then. we must acknowledge the horrible for what it is and move away from it.

    otherwise we will continue to have "give me a smile, gorgeous" "men" walking the street.
  5. Joined
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    15 Nov '17 09:33
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    I always thought it looked staged.
    Either that or they were reunited lovers.

    Even at the time, just grabbing people and sticking your tongue down their throats was rather frowned upon.

    At the same time, however, when the war ended there was massive relief. Especially in Europe. And when there's relief and alcohol, things get a bit wild. I'm not o ...[text shortened]... tural weirdness or misplaced humor. The intent is not to intimidate or actually feel someone up.
    "when there is relief and alcohol things get a bid wild"
    you just made an excuse for every frat boy groping someone (or worse) at a party.

    "I'm not on about abuse, but I'm on about a general abundance of people doing things they normally wouldn't. "
    a rapist raping someone in a situation where they normally wouldn't rape is still a rapist

    "f you watch films from the 50's and 60's (and indeed Indiana Jones and James Bond movies up till Brosnan) you constantly see images of men taking the initiative by grabbing women and kissing them"
    and they are cringe inducing horror shows. what's the matter with you.

    "and them ultimately submitting to the hero."
    you mean the rapist. as many rape victims do, you know, so they don't get murdered by the physically superior aggressor.

    what the flying fuk, you sound almost nostalgic about the good old days.

    "And then... and this is probably more contentious than the photo itself... I think there's a big difference between grabbing and kissing a stranger in a friendly drunken mood and raping someone."
    similar to how there is a difference between kidnapping someone and kidnapping someone then murdering them and eating them. Yes, the first instance is not canibalism. It is still wrong in itself and still not acceptable.

    "The other two are boundaries which may or not be crossed: tender cultural weirdness or misplaced humor"
    Hahahaha, someone considerably stronger grabbing someone and forcing contact, often sextual contact, on them. So much humor. The would both laugh and laugh about it later and of course become the best of friends.

    Well, on that note, i can only sincerely hope that a 150kg bouncer grabs you by the balls and passionately sticks his tongue down your throat. It's not rape, it's humor. Enjoy.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    15 Nov '17 12:01
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    no, it should be judged by today's standards.
    everything is judged by the present standards otherwise we would look at pictures of slavery or massacres and go, hmm, quite, well, there were different standards then. we must acknowledge the horrible for what it is and move away from it.

    otherwise we will continue to have "give me a smile, gorgeous" "men" walking the street.
    The photographer should have stuck around long enough to get a pic of her 5 seconds after he released her where she punched hin in the nose.....
  7. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    15 Nov '17 12:342 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There's an iconic photo of an incident in New York City's Times Square,
    celebrating the end of the Second World War on 14 August 1945.
    It was published in 'Life' magazine with this caption:
    "In New York's Times Square a white-clad girl clutches her purse and
    skirt as an uninhibited sailor plants his lips squarely on hers.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org ...[text shortened]... be becoming more sensitive to
    the many ways in which women are sexually harassed or assaulted?
    Given that it is not known who was in the picture, then it would be a given that it is even harder to know the circumstances i.e. if it were consensual or not.

    Given these two known's it is a given that you do not know it was forced, and that it is a given that your imaginations that it was forced, zahlanzis whooping about rape and shavs wild fantasies amount to no more than dream exaggerations and wishful overstatements in the interests of do-goodiness self righteouness.

    All three of you try to find something productive with your lives.
  8. Behind the scenes
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    15 Nov '17 12:436 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There's an iconic photo of an incident in New York City's Times Square,
    celebrating the end of the Second World War on 14 August 1945.
    It was published in 'Life' magazine with this caption:
    "In New York's Times Square a white-clad girl clutches her purse and
    skirt as an uninhibited sailor plants his lips squarely on hers.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org ...[text shortened]... be becoming more sensitive to
    the many ways in which women are sexually harassed or assaulted?
    Given that the man used force to seize a woman and kiss her without her consent, pressing himself close against her, this act would be considered sexual assault today.



    Almost everything men do is considered sexual assault today. I'm sure this lady suffered untold trauma because of it!! There is only one solution to this (since he was a white man) Let's dig him up and shoot him!!:

    In today's politically correct world a couple needs 2 lawyers and an U.N. negotiator just to have a relationship. 😞
  9. Joined
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    15 Nov '17 13:19
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Given that the man used force to seize a woman and kiss her without her consent, pressing himself close against her, this act would be considered sexual assault today.



    Almost everything men do is considered sexual assault today. I'm sure this lady suffered untold trauma because of it!! There is only one solution to this (since he was a white man) Let ...[text shortened]... ly correct world a couple needs 2 lawyers and an U.N. negotiator just to have a relationship. 😞
    "Almost everything men do is considered sexual assault today."
    aww, you poor snowflake

    "I'm sure this lady suffered untold trauma because of it!!"
    so you're saying that you decide what is bad enough, not the victim

    "There is only one solution to this (since he was a white man) Let's dig him up and shoot him!!: "
    or perhaps just control yourself and don't consider yourself victimized that you can't do whatever the hell you want.

    "In today's politically correct world a couple needs 2 lawyers and an U.N. negotiator just to have a relationship"
    no, just decency and mutual respect.
  10. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    15 Nov '17 13:21
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi

    so you're saying that you decide what is bad enough, not the victim

    First there needs to be a victim doltboy.
  11. Standard membervivify
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    15 Nov '17 15:07
    There's no way to tell if the image depicts sexual assault or not. We don't know if the sailor had a conversation with the woman prior to the pic being taken, if there was any attraction between the two or not, and most importantly, we have no way of knowing the woman's thoughts on the situation.

    Given the jubilant mood of the parade and the high regard the sailors were held in, it's not unreasonable to think both parties in the picture had fun. The people in the background (both men and women) seem to have a favorable view of the kiss, given the smiles on their face. This may indicate that no force or other act of disrespect was witnessed.

    Ultimately, we don't know. Have any of the women who've come forward as being the one in the picture, claimed this wasn't consensual? That would be the only opinion that matters. But even then, we can't know for sure if any of the women were actually the ones photographed.
  12. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    15 Nov '17 15:29
    Originally posted by @vivify
    There's no way to tell if the image depicts sexual assault or not. We don't know if the sailor had a conversation with the woman prior to the pic being taken, if there was any attraction between the two or not, and most importantly, we have no way of knowing the woman's thoughts on the situation.

    Given the jubilant mood of the parade and the high regar ...[text shortened]... But even then, we can't know for sure if any of the women were actually the ones photographed.
    Stop being reasonable!

    #MeToo
  13. Standard memberHandyAndy
    Non sum qualis eram
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    15 Nov '17 15:37
    Here's some of the history of the sailor, the woman in white, and "V-J Day in Times Square":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square
  14. Joined
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    15 Nov '17 15:45
    Originally posted by @vivify
    There's no way to tell if the image depicts sexual assault or not. We don't know if the sailor had a conversation with the woman prior to the pic being taken, if there was any attraction between the two or not, and most importantly, we have no way of knowing the woman's thoughts on the situation.

    Given the jubilant mood of the parade and the high regar ...[text shortened]... But even then, we can't know for sure if any of the women were actually the ones photographed.
    "There's no way to tell if the image depicts sexual assault or not. "
    there is if you do a little research about the picture's background.

    that nurse didn't know the sailor, didn't agree to the kiss, it was assault.

    "we have no way of knowing the woman's thoughts on the situation. "
    yes, all people thought that. all but the one who came up with the most outside of the box thinking ever: "ask the woman herself".


    "Ultimately, we don't know. Have any of the women who've come forward as being the one in the picture, claimed this wasn't consensual?"
    YOU don't know. "We", as in the people that actually researched this subject more than just looking at a picture, do know.


    "That would be the only opinion that matters. But even then, we can't know for sure if any of the women were actually the ones photographed."
    Uhuh. So without actually researching the matter, you choose to rather go with "it was consensual". Even though duchess provided the links to prove her statements. You don't dispute those links, you didn't even read them.
    why is that?
  15. Joined
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    15 Nov '17 15:46
    Originally posted by @handyandy
    Here's some of the history of the sailor, the woman in white, and "V-J Day in Times Square":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square
    Otherwise known as "link duchess already posted in the original post"
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