Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 17:24
    In Iowa, a recent poll puts Bernie Sanders at 45% vs. Hillary Clinton at 48%. It's never been so close since sometime in October when polls were still including Biden.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-3195.html


    In New Hampshire Sanders is leading in the two most recent polls.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/nh/new_hampshire_democratic_presidential_primary-3351.html


    A real surprise to me is a nation-wide poll released today that puts Sanders at 39% versus Clinton at 43%. The same pollster gave Hillary an 18-point lead just six weeks ago.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html

    I think Ms. Inevitable is going to have to postpone the Coronation for awhile!
  2. Germany
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    11 Jan '16 17:48
    It would be funny to have a contest between Sanders and Trump. Who do Americans dislike more, a socialist or a racist?
  3. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 17:56
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    It would be funny to have a contest between Sanders and Trump. Who do Americans dislike more, a socialist or a racist?
    Sanders as the nominee would certainly energize the left in the US come election day in November, and would likely help Democrats "down-ballot" in every state. Democrats would retake the Senate, and perhaps even the House of Representatives.

    Of course, Sanders isn't really a socialist. He isn't advocating that government should seize the means of production. He's a social democrat in the European mold, although in practice probably still slightly to the right of a typical member of the Social Democrats (SPD) in Germany.
  4. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 18:12
    Bernie also polls much more strongly against the various wingnuts in the Republican Clown Car compared to Hillary:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/

    Iowa: Trump vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Clinton 48, Trump 40 - Clinton +8
    Iowa: Trump vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Sanders 51, Trump 38 - Sanders +13
    Iowa: Cruz vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Cruz 47, Clinton 43 - Cruz +4
    Iowa: Cruz vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Sanders 47, Cruz 42 - Sanders +5
    Iowa: Rubio vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Rubio 47, Clinton 42 - Rubio +5
    Iowa: Rubio vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Rubio 44, Sanders 44 - Tie
    New Hampshire: Trump vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Clinton 45, Trump 44 - Clinton +1
    New Hampshire: Trump vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Sanders 56, Trump 37 - Sanders +19
    New Hampshire: Cruz vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Clinton 44, Cruz 48 - Cruz +4
    New Hampshire: Cruz vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Sanders 55, Cruz 37 - Sanders +18
    New Hampshire: Rubio vs. Clinton: NBC/WSJ/Marist Rubio 52, Clinton 40 - Rubio +12
    New Hampshire: Rubio vs. Sanders: NBC/WSJ/Marist Sanders 50, Rubio 41 - Sanders +9
  5. Germany
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    11 Jan '16 18:25
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Sanders as the nominee would certainly energize the left in the US come election day in November, and would likely help Democrats "down-ballot" in every state. Democrats would retake the Senate, and perhaps even the House of Representatives.

    Of course, Sanders isn't really a socialist. He isn't advocating that government should seize the means of prod ...[text shortened]... obably still slightly to the right of a typical member of the Social Democrats (SPD) in Germany.
    The vast majority of self-identified socialists don't "[advocate] that government should seize the means of production."
  6. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 18:301 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The vast majority of self-identified socialists don't "[advocate] that government should seize the means of production."
    Sanders self-identifies as a Democratic Socialist, which is a more accurate label for all those people who say they're socialists but don't espouse one of the central tenets of socialism: social ownership and democratic control of the means of production.

    Loosely, I'd say a democratic socialist replaces "social ownership" with robust government regulation and progressive taxation.
  7. Joined
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    11 Jan '16 19:08
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The vast majority of self-identified socialists don't "[advocate] that government should seize the means of production."
    Indeed, seizing the means of production is communism. Democratic socialism is totally different. If SCOTUS hadn't allowed Big Money to buy the U.S. government, people wouldn't be so pissed off. Unfortunately, the same powers own the media and so vast numbers of U.S. citizens do not realize their country is a plutocracy. Instead of the government owning and controlling everything, about .5% of the population is in control.
  8. Cape Town
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    11 Jan '16 19:29
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    It would be funny to have a contest between Sanders and Trump. Who do Americans dislike more, a socialist or a racist?
    Well, if the two of them end up running it should, in theory, but not in practice, imply that a majority of republicans like Trump and a majority of democrats like Sanders.
    I personally like Sanders' ideas and lean towards socialism but am less impressed by him as a person and suspect he will not be able to win.
  9. Germany
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    11 Jan '16 19:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Well, if the two of them end up running it should, in theory, but not in practice, imply that a majority of republicans like Trump and a majority of democrats like Sanders.
    I personally like Sanders' ideas and lean towards socialism but am less impressed by him as a person and suspect he will not be able to win.
    With the way the primary system works in most states, one needs not a majority but a plurality of primary votes.
  10. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 20:53
    Originally posted by Phranny
    Indeed, seizing the means of production is communism.
    That is necessary for true communism, but not sufficient. There are, to be sure, different kinds of communism. I'm of the "anarcho-communism" persuasion, as espoused by Mikhail Bakunin, which contrasts starkly with the "vanguard party" Marxist-Leninist variety.
  11. Cape Town
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    11 Jan '16 21:03
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    With the way the primary system works in most states, one needs not a majority but a plurality of primary votes.
    Yes, everybody knows that the US is one of the least democratic democracies on earth. Nevertheless, if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination it would suggest either significant support for socialism or at least the version Sanders is pushing or dislike for Hillary exceeding dislike of socialists.
  12. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 21:08
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Yes, everybody knows that the US is one of the least democratic democracies on earth....
    But the US was among the first of the modern (representative) democracies to arise!

    Then again, the beta version of any new program tends to be full of bugs...
  13. The Catbird's Seat
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    11 Jan '16 21:23
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    In Iowa, a recent poll puts Bernie Sanders at 45% vs. Hillary Clinton at 48%. It's never been so close since sometime in October when polls were still including Biden.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-3195.html


    In New Hampshire Sanders is leading in the two most recent polls.

    http://w ...[text shortened]... 24.html

    [b]I think Ms. Inevitable is going to have to postpone the Coronation for awhile!
    [/b]
    I predicted a year ago, that Hillary Clinton would not be the Democrat nominee.
  14. Zugzwang
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    11 Jan '16 21:231 edit
    Originally posted by Soothfast to Twhitehead
    But the US was among the first of the modern (representative) democracies to arise!

    Then again, the beta version of any new program tends to be full of bugs...
    I have noticed that many, if not most, Americans like to regard the statements of their
    Founding Fathers as sacred texts, attempting to extrapolate the opinions of some white
    men in the late 18th century into the early 21st century. So Americans argue about such
    matters as "Would the Founding Fathers believe that the Second Amendment should
    guarantee the right of Americans to own guns with magazines of 30 rounds or only 10 rounds?"

    Given that some of these Founding Fathers owned slaves or approved of slavery, I
    would submit that Americans should be less obsessed with attempting to base every
    argument about the US Constitution upon what the Founding Fathers would have thought.
  15. Standard memberSoothfast
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    11 Jan '16 21:301 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I have noticed that many, if not most, Americans like to regard the statements of their
    Founding Fathers as sacred texts, attempting to extrapolate the opinions of some white
    men in the late 18th century into the early 21st century. So Americans argue about such
    matters as "Would the Founding Fathers believe that the Second Amendment should
    guarantee ...[text shortened]... ase every
    argument about the US Constitution upon what the Founding Fathers would have thought.
    If things keep going the way they are, in another 200 years what's left of the US* will be holding seances as a matter of course at home, in church, and in government institutions, consulting the Holy Founders on everything from where to peg interest rates to what color socks to put on.

    *EDIT: The Northeast and West Coast would have long since seceded.
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