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  1. Standard member vivify
    rain
    09 Oct '17 04:46
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41544849

    At least 350,000 people gathered in Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, for a rally against independence from Spain.
    They waved Spanish and Catalan flags and carried banners saying "Together we are stronger" and "Catalonia is Spain".
    It was the largest such rally in Catalonia amid the furore over last week's disputed independence referendum.
    Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has warned he would not rule out anything "within the law" to halt Catalan secession.
    Similar rallies were held across Spain on Saturday.
    The final results from the referendum in the wealthy north-eastern region suggested 90% of the 2.3 million people who voted backed independence. Turnout was 43%.

    There have been several claims of irregularities, and many ballot boxes were seized by Spanish police.
    Nearly 900 people were injured as the police, trying to enforce a Spanish court ban on the vote, attempted to disperse voters.
    Thirty-three police officers were also hurt.

    Police in Barcelona said 350,000 people turned out for Sunday's rally; organisers put the figure at 950,000.
    Among them were former government minister Josep Borrell, who said his fellow Catalans needed to recover their level-headedness, and nobel laureate Mario Vargas Llosa.
    "You need more than a coup plot to destroy what has been built over 500 years of history," Vargas Llosa, the Peruvian-Spanish novelist, told the crowds.
    One of those attending the rally was 72-year-old Araceli Ponze. She told Reuters: "We feel both Catalan and Spanish.
    "We are facing a tremendous unknown. We will see what happens this week but we have to speak out very loudly so they know what we want."
    Similar unity rallies were held across Spain on Saturday

    Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont is expected to address the regional parliament on Tuesday at 18:00 local time (16:00 GMT). Spain's Constitutional Court suspended a Catalan parliament session that had been planned for Monday.
    There had been speculation that independence would be declared unilaterally at the parliament's next sitting, but an MP from Mr Puigdemont's party said the current plan was to stop short of this.
    Marta Pascal told the BBC that the leader would make a "symbolic statement".
    He would recognise the referendum and say that a large percentage of Catalans wanted independence, before talking about setting off along a path leading to independence, Ms Pascal added.

    In an interview with El País newspaper on Saturday, Spain's prime minister retained the tough line he and his government have taken over the referendum.
    "The government will ensure that any declaration of independence will lead to nothing," Mariano Rajoy said.
    He also said he planned to keep extra police, deployed to Catalonia before the referendum, in the region until the crisis is over.
    And he rejected calls for early national elections.

    Asked whether he was prepared to invoke Article 155 of Spain's constitution, which allows the national parliament to intervene in the running of an autonomous region, Mr Rajoy said: "I don't rule out absolutely anything that is within the law."
    Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's first minister who lost a referendum on independence from the UK in 2014, said on Sunday that the only way to resolve the crisis was with "both sides coming together to try to find a way forward... that respects the rule of law, democracy and the right to choose".

    On Saturday, thousands of people calling for Spanish unity attended rallies in the capital Madrid. Other demonstrations - including in Barcelona - were also held urging political dialogue.
    Meanwhile, businesses have continued to announce their departure from the Catalan region amid the ongoing political uncertainty.
  2. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    09 Oct '17 07:02
    Originally posted by @vivify
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41544849

    At least 350,000 people gathered in Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, for a rally against independence from Spain.
    They waved Spanish and Catalan flags and carried banners saying "Together we are stronger" and "Catalonia is Spain".
    It was the largest such rally in Catalonia amid the furore over last week's di ...[text shortened]... nued to announce their departure from the Catalan region amid the ongoing political uncertainty.
    The wealthy part. So Spain just doesn't want to lose a lucrative part of it, like UK not wanting to give up Northern Ireland because the North was industrialized.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Oct '17 08:57 / 1 edit
    ...The Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy stupidly decided to use violence to prevent a referendum in Catalonia, despite the fact that a peaceful referendum would most probably have led to a similar outcome as in Scotland. Spain and Catalonia are now on collision course; a situation that could have been avoided if the Spanish Prime Minister had not suffered from dogmatism and a degree of nationalism equaling in intensity the Catalan version....

    The Catalans are not an oppressed people. They have a high degree of autonomy. They can organize their own education in their own language. No obstacles exist for the cultural development of Catalonia. It is the most prosperous region of Spain. Barcelona is a bustling city like no other in Spain. The Catalans are heard at the regional, national and European level. The image of an oppressed people is ludicrous.

    Catalan nationalism is of the same kind as British nationalism that led to Brexit. It is based on a number of myths.

    The first myth is that there is an external enemy. For the Brexiteers these are the European authorities (the European Commission, the European Court, etc.), which impose their arbitrary will on Britain. For the Catalan nationalists the enemy is the Spanish government oppressing the Catalan people.

    The second myth is that the people who fight for their independence have a clearly defined identity. The task of national politicians is to listen to the will of the people. There can be only one voice. There is no room for different and opposing voices. The British government is now calling for patriotism. The opponents of Brexit are not true patriots.

    The third myth is that independence will generate unsuspected economic prosperity. When the people “take back control” they will have the tools to achieve maximum economic prosperity. That is today the argument of Brexiteers like Boris Johnson. When Brexit will be realized (preferably as soon as possible), Britain will have achieved its true destiny. “Global Britain” will take over from the protectionist EU. Great Britain will merrily conclude free trade agreements with the rest of the world, which will lead to unprecedented prosperity. A similar argument of more prosperity for an independent Catalonia is heard from Catalan nationalists today.

    ...The reality is that globalization undermines national sovereignty. This happens in many ways. One example. Large multinationals blackmail national governments in Europe, with the result that corporate taxes decline almost everywhere. In no country, however, is there a will of the people in favour of reducing these taxes. Yet this is the outcome because governments act as national entities. Were they to decide jointly on corporate taxes in Europe, multinationals would be unable to blackmail these governments and there would be no creeping decline in corporate taxes.


    https://www.socialeurope.eu/catalonia-brexit-nationalism
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Oct '17 09:02
    ....The Catalan question has deep historical roots, as does nationalism more broadly. But would it have erupted the way it recently did had Europe not mishandled the eurozone crisis since 2010, imposing quasi-permanent stagnation on Spain and the rest of the European periphery while setting the stage for xenophobia and moral panic when refugees began crossing Europe’s external borders? An example illustrates the connection.

    Barcelona, Catalonia’s exquisite capital, is a rich city running a budget surplus. Yet many of its citizens recently faced eviction by Spanish banks that had been bailed out by their taxes. The result was the formation of a civic movement that in June 2015 succeeded in electing Ada Colau as Barcelona’s mayor.

    Among Colau’s commitments to the people of Barcelona was a local tax cut for small businesses and households, assistance to the poor, and the construction of housing for 15,000 refugees – a large share of the total number that Spain was meant to absorb from frontline states like Greece and Italy. All of this could be achieved while keeping the city’s books in the black, simply by reducing the municipal budget surplus.

    Alas, Colau soon realized that she faced insurmountable obstacles. Spain’s central government, citing the state’s obligations to the EU’s austerity directives, had enacted legislation effectively banning any municipality from reducing its surplus. At the same time, the central government barred entry to the 15,000 refugees for whom Colau had built excellent housing facilities.

    To this day, the budget surplus prevails, the services and local tax cuts promised have not been delivered, and the social housing for refugees remains empty. The path from this sorry state of affairs to the reinvigoration of Catalan separatism could not be clearer.

    In any systemic crisis, the combination of austerity for the many, socialism for bankers, and strangulation of local democracy creates the hopelessness and discontent that are nationalism’s oxygen. Progressive, anti-nationalist Catalans, like Colau, find themselves squeezed from both sides: the state’s authoritarian establishment, which uses the EU’s directives as a cover for its behavior, and a renaissance of radical parochialism, isolationism, and atavistic nativism. Both reflect the failure to fulfill the promise of shared, pan-European prosperity.

    Catalonia provides an excellent case study of Europe’s broader conundrum. Choosing between an authoritarian Spanish state and a “make Catalonia great again” nationalism is equivalent to choosing between Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the President of the Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers, and Marine Le Pen, the leader of France’s far-right National Front: austerity or disintegration.

    The duty of progressive Europeans is to reject both: the deep establishment at the EU level and the competing nationalisms ravaging solidarity and common sense in member states like Spain.

    The alternative is to Europeanize the solution to a problem caused largely by Europe’s systemic crisis. ....


    https://www.socialeurope.eu/spains-crisis-europes-opportunity
  5. 09 Oct '17 10:05 / 1 edit
    Sounds like it's time for Lincoln to send in the troops!

    Being part of a nation or European Union is like joining the mob. You can join but you an never leave alive.

    I'm still waiting to see how the EU forces England to come back.
  6. Standard member vivify
    rain
    09 Oct '17 12:39 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    The Catalans are not an oppressed people. They have a high degree of autonomy. They can organize their own education in their own language. No obstacles exist for the cultural development of Catalonia. It is the most prosperous region of Spain.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/does-catalonia-want-independence-spain/

    Calls for complete independence grew steadily until July 2010, when the Constitutional Court in Madrid overruled part of the 2006 autonomy statute, stating that there is no legal basis for recognising Catalonia as a nation within Spain.

    The economic crisis in Spain has only served to magnify calls for Catalan independence – as the wealthy Barcelona region is seen as propping up the poorer rest of Spain.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Oct '17 12:46
    Originally posted by @vivify
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/does-catalonia-want-independence-spain/

    Calls for complete independence grew steadily until July 2010, when the Constitutional Court in Madrid overruled part of the 2006 autonomy statute, stating that there is no legal basis for recognising Catalonia as a nation within Spain.

    The economic crisis in Spain has onl ...[text shortened]... dence – as the wealthy Barcelona region is seen as propping up the poorer rest of Spain.
    Yes, just the sort of unjustified compaint made by Londoners about the North of England. In every country, enterprise gravitates to a centre, usually a city like Barcelona or London, which becomes prosperous by drawing on the talent of the surrounding regions.
  8. Standard member vivify
    rain
    09 Oct '17 13:25 / 3 edits
    Northern Ireland will probably be the next succession. The Irish there were absolutely livid with Britain over leaving the E.U. I'm sure Brexit has emboldened Catalonians who support independence. Quite a domino effect has been started.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    09 Oct '17 15:11
    I have a mild dislike for Catalans. They're douchebags.
  10. 09 Oct '17 15:40
    Catalexit? The technical term is Cat-alone-ia
  11. Standard member vivify
    rain
    09 Oct '17 15:49
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    Catalexit? The technical term is Cat-alone-ia
    I took term from Brexit, which came from Grexit (Greece).
  12. 09 Oct '17 16:03
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I took term from Brexit, which came from Grexit (Greece).
    Yes, obviously. I was joking.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Oct '17 18:27
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Northern Ireland will probably be the next succession. The Irish there were absolutely livid with Britain over leaving the E.U. I'm sure Brexit has emboldened Catalonians who support independence. Quite a domino effect has been started.
    Secession?

    There is no single Northern Ireland voice. The damage to the peace agreement is not going to produce a sudden consensus in favour of Irish unification. Nor is having the Democratic Unionist Party in a formal partnership with the Tory Government in London a recipe for early secession.

    When you wreck a peace agreement the result is not peace.
  14. 09 Oct '17 20:16
    Originally posted by @sonhouse to Vivify
    The wealthy part. So Spain just doesn't want to lose a lucrative part of it, like UK
    not wanting to give up Northern Ireland because the North was industrialized.
    Sonhouse's analogy between Catalonia leaving Spain and Northern Ireland leaving the UK is very flawed.

    Sonhouse wrongly implies that Great Britain (the UK outside Northern Ireland) opposes
    Northern Ireland joining the Republic of Ireland only--or primarily--on account of not wanting
    to be deprived of Northern Ireland's supposed 'lucrative' 'wealth'.
    In fact, Northern Ireland has a lower average GDP per capita than the rest of the UK.

    On an anecdotal level, I cannot recall meeting anyone in the UK who has opposed
    Northern Ireland leaving the UK only because it supposedly would make the UK poorer.
  15. 09 Oct '17 21:10
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I took term from Brexit, which came from Grexit (Greece).
    In fact, though, it's not analogous, since those terms are about leaving the EU, and this is about independence from Spain. We didn't talk about Scoxit when the Scottish referendum was in question.