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Debates Forum

  1. 03 Feb '11 13:53
    We all know terrorists from Egypt have carried out attacks against the USA. How much does this have to do with the USA government supporting Mubarak all this time? How much is due to the USA government's support of Israel?
    50%?
    60%-40%?
    70%-30%

    Since terrorism is instability, isn't the USA government causing more instability than it is preventing by supporting corrupt dictators in the middle east? If keeping peace between Egypt and Israel is creating more stability than instability is it worth it?

    Israel and Egypt get lots of money from the USA taxpayers. Why is that? What makes it worth it? What does the USA taxpayer get out of it?
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    03 Feb '11 17:31
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    We all know terrorists from Egypt have carried out attacks against the USA. How much does this have to do with the USA government supporting Mubarak all this time? How much is due to the USA government's support of Israel?
    50%?
    60%-40%?
    70%-30%

    Since terrorism is instability, isn't the USA government causing more instability than it is preventing ...[text shortened]... USA taxpayers. Why is that? What makes it worth it? What does the USA taxpayer get out of it?
    USA taxpayer gets access to the Suez for one thing.
  3. 03 Feb '11 20:52
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    USA taxpayer gets access to the Suez for one thing.
    Is it worth 1.5 billion per year?
  4. 03 Feb '11 22:12
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    USA taxpayer gets access to the Suez for one thing.
    Surely any kind of regime will allow traffic through Suez?
  5. 03 Feb '11 22:45
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    We all know terrorists from Egypt have carried out attacks against the USA. How much does this have to do with the USA government supporting Mubarak all this time? How much is due to the USA government's support of Israel?
    50%?
    60%-40%?
    70%-30%

    Since terrorism is instability, isn't the USA government causing more instability than it is preventing ...[text shortened]... USA taxpayers. Why is that? What makes it worth it? What does the USA taxpayer get out of it?
    I don't see what all the concern is for the US. I mean, if they go rogue the US will simply send in some troops and occupy it for a couple of decades. Geesh!!
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Feb '11 00:07
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Surely any kind of regime will allow traffic through Suez?
    Commercial, probably. But if a popular government is formed, it seems unlikely US warships would be allowed to traverse the canal.
  7. 04 Feb '11 02:30
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Commercial, probably. But if a popular government is formed, it seems unlikely US warships would be allowed to traverse the canal.
    So do you think that is the primary reason our government installed a puppet (Mubarak) in power?
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Feb '11 02:37
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    So do you think that is the primary reason our government installed a puppet (Mubarak) in power?
    Are you seriously claiming that the US "installed" Mubarak?
  9. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    04 Feb '11 02:42
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    We all know terrorists from Egypt have carried out attacks against the USA. How much does this have to do with the USA government supporting Mubarak all this time? How much is due to the USA government's support of Israel?
    50%?
    60%-40%?
    70%-30%

    Since terrorism is instability, isn't the USA government causing more instability than it is preventing ...[text shortened]... USA taxpayers. Why is that? What makes it worth it? What does the USA taxpayer get out of it?
    There are 3 reasons America supports Egypt and it's leadership.

    1. Oil

    2. Oil

    3. Oil

    I hope you are writing this down, because I'm going to be asking you questions about it tomorrow!
  10. 04 Feb '11 13:47
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Are you seriously claiming that the US "installed" Mubarak?
    He is obviously a puppet. I'm sure he got help from the CIA. That is how the Shah of Iran got into power and he was a puppet.

    The British Empire installed a puppet in Iraq after WW1 and encouraged the migration of Jews to Palestine to create Israel.

    I suppose you think the USA has abandoned it's policy of overthrowing democratically elected leaders and installing brutal dictators. What world are you living in? This is the real world.
  11. 04 Feb '11 13:51
    Originally posted by bill718
    There are 3 reasons America supports Egypt and it's leadership.

    1. Oil

    2. Oil

    3. Oil

    I hope you are writing this down, because I'm going to be asking you questions about it tomorrow!
    Only oil? Surely you must believe their are other factors involved.

    Egypt doesn't have much oil. Perhaps you are talking about the transport of oil through the Suez Canal. Is that what you mean?
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Feb '11 13:57
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    He is obviously a puppet. I'm sure he got help from the CIA. That is how the Shah of Iran got into power and he was a puppet.

    The British Empire installed a puppet in Iraq after WW1 and encouraged the migration of Jews to Palestine to create Israel.

    I suppose you think the USA has abandoned it's policy of overthrowing democratically elected leaders and installing brutal dictators. What world are you living in? This is the real world.
    Have you ever actually opened a history book?

    Mubarak was Sadat's Vice-President and protege and became President when Sadat was assassinated by Islamist army officers.

    Sadat was Nasser's Vice President and became President when Nasser died of natural causes.

    I'm not seeing this "CIA involvement" you speak of. Ranting and raving in general terms makes you look foolish when specific circumstances don't fit into your particular version of reality. That the CIA helped overthrow Mossadegh and install the Shah in Iran doesn't prove anything in Egypt; I'm sure they would have preferred if Nasser got overthrown (he was an anti-western nationalist) but that didn't happen. Mubarak is a straight line successor of Nasser; it is of course true that the US successfully brought off Sadat and then Mubarak after Camp David but that hardly means the CIA installed them (they didn't).
  13. 04 Feb '11 14:00
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Commercial, probably. But if a popular government is formed, it seems unlikely US warships would be allowed to traverse the canal.
    Maybe, maybe not... after all there doesn't appear to be much pressure from the Muslim population in Turkey to quit NATO.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Feb '11 14:08
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Maybe, maybe not... after all there doesn't appear to be much pressure from the Muslim population in Turkey to quit NATO.
    As I have pointed out to you in other discussions, one size doesn't fit all. Egypt's population is far more hostile to the US government than Turkey's. I posted this in another thread:

    Last year the Pew Research Center Global Attitudes Project conducted a survey of opinion in several Muslim countries. The subject was the proper role of Islam in politics and society. One of the countries surveyed was Egypt, and among other discoveries, the Pew researchers found that 84 percent of Egyptians favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.
    In another survey, Pew found that 90 percent of Egyptians say they believe in freedom of religion. Pew also found that a majority of Egyptians think democracy, with protections of free speech and assembly, is "preferable to any other kind of government."

    How can those attitudes fit together in a democratic post-Mubarak Egypt? It's no wonder so many people can't figure out what is next.

    The Pew survey found wide streams of opinion in Egypt that seem at the very least inhospitable to democracy. When asked which side they would take in a struggle between "groups who want to modernize the country [and] Islamic fundamentalists," 59 percent of Egyptians picked the fundamentalists, while 27 percent picked the modernizers. In a country in which the army will likely play a deciding role in selecting the next political leadership, just 32 percent believe in civilian control of the military. And a majority, 54 percent, support making segregation of men and women in the workplace the law throughout Egypt.

    There's more. When asked whether suicide bombing can ever be justified, 54 percent said yes (although most believe such occasions are "rare." Eighty-two percent supported stoning for those who commit adultery.

    And yet at the same time, says Richard Wike, associate director of Pew's Global Attitudes Project, "We found support for some specific features of democracy -- free media, civil liberties, an independent judiciary." Indeed, 80 percent of Egyptians place a high value on free speech, 88 percent on an impartial judiciary and 75 percent on "media free from government censorship."

    What accounts for the coexistence of attitudes that to the American mind cannot coexist? "I'm not entirely certain what explains it," Wike says.

    Analysts with a hopeful view of events in Egypt see a society that, if Hosni Mubarak departs the scene, will lean toward modernity. "There has always been a modernist current in Egypt, and it has always battled against the religious alternative," says Fouad Ajami, director of the Middle East Studies Program at Johns Hopkins University. "The deciding vote in that fight between the modernists and the religious types was always cast by the state, and if I look at the next phase in Egypt, my feeling is that the army, which is an extension and expression of the middle class, will check the Muslim Brotherhood."

    Still, even Ajami can't predict how that will work out. When asked what freedom of religion would mean in practice in a new Egypt, he replies, "The honest answer is, as they say in Arabic, only God knows what is next."

    Whatever comes next, it will likely have an anti-American flavor. The Pew 2010 report found that 82 percent of Egyptians hold an unfavorable view of the United States. That's higher than in Pakistan, higher than in Jordan, higher than 18 other nations Pew surveyed. And it is higher than the 72 percent of Egyptians who have an unfavorable view of al Qaeda.

    Egyptian opinion of the United States improved briefly in 2009, when Barack Obama became president, but it fell significantly in 2010. Muslim opinion of Obama, who made outreach to Muslims a top priority and traveled to Cairo in June 2009 to address the Islamic world, has also dropped.

    On the other hand, as the al Qaeda statistic shows, Egyptians aren't siding with terrorist groups, either. They don't like Osama bin Laden. Seventy percent say they are at least somewhat concerned about the rise of Islamic extremism around the world. They don't like Hezbollah and are divided on Hamas.

    Put it all together, and it's a confusing picture for the nonexpert and, truth be told, for the expert, too. We might be about to see a grand democratic experiment in a country in which large numbers of people hold at least some views that westerners find utterly inconsistent with democracy. Such experiments have been rough rides in the past. As they say in Arabic -- and in English, too -- only God knows what is next.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/01/egypts-conflicting-views-democracy-and-religion

    It's a safe wager that a representative Egyptian government will not make US military operations in the Middle East easier. Transit for US warships through the Suez is a goner in that case.
  15. 04 Feb '11 14:22
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    As I have pointed out to you in other discussions, one size doesn't fit all. Egypt's population is far more hostile to the US government than Turkey's. I posted this in another thread:

    Last year the Pew Research Center Global Attitudes Project conducted a survey of opinion in several Muslim countries. The subject was the proper role of Islam in politi ...[text shortened]... ansit for US warships through the Suez is a goner in that case.
    Maybe you're right, but if all else fails they can always throw around some dough.